What is your thoughts on multiclassing?

[Obryn]

I really like 4e's take on multiclassing, though I was very, very skeptical at first.

Many of my players have taken the first multiclass feat. Not too many have taken the later multiclass feats, but I figure I'll give it some time.

It's a very slick system, IMHO. With feats as cheap as they are, I think it's a good choice for many PCs - especially humans.

-O

 

[Minigiant]

Personally I like the 4E's multiclassing best but have disargeements on the execution. 3E put 90% of your attention in one class at a time. 4E gives you the option to spend a greater anount of attention on another class by sacficing focus.

4E is like organizing a schedule for work. 3E is like switching jobs.

Only thing I'd prefer is that the feats had a more uniform structure. The intro feat would be a role based power (a mark for defenders, a healer for leader, bonus damage for strikers, and an at-will as enconter for controllers) and the needed proficiencies. Novice Power would be the feat that grants the skill. . Acolyte power would also allow daily power swapping. And Adept power would grant a class based bonus.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

3E's multiclassing did a lot, but didn't work as advertised and tended to break things most of the time. The whole "now I'm a Wizard thing" was also a bit lame from a fluff perspective.

4E's multiclassing doesn't look like much, but it works. Its easy to miss how much the fact that it works as advertised adds to the game. 4E's multiclassing is also best among all editions in terms of fluff.

 

[DM-Rocco]

After having played a Fighter/Wizard (and not some of those nansy-pansy Swordmages ), I think multiclassing - including Paragon multiclassing rocks.

Maybe the synergy between Fighter and Wizard is particularly good (since marking only relies on making attacks, nothing else), but it was very effective.

I will have to try more multi-classing combinations. The hardest part is the same as in 3E - managing the multiple ability dependency. But at least you lose the other problems, like BAB stacking, Saving throw problems, skill point management, not getting the neat stuff.

I think both Multiclassing and Paragon Path fix one of the glaring problems in 3E multiclassing - the cherry-picking between multiple classes goes away. You can't go into a Class or PrC just to get the first two neat special abilities and then leave before the boring ones come. Multiclassin your Barbarian with the Fighter to get an extra feat and heavy armor proficiency. Or Multiclass your Fighter with Barbarian to get Rage and then pick Extra Rage. Multiclass your first level in Rogue to get some extra skill points and Sneak Attack and then continue with Fighter.

You buy the entire package. (Though multiclassing still allows some limited cherry picking, but you get to pick only one cherry of all the classes, not a cherry from every class)

I think the cerry picking is totally gone from multiclassing in 4e. As an example, if you multiclass into a ranger, while you can make attacks with two weapons, you don't gain the two weapon fighting style feat which allows them to use any one handed weapon in the off hand and also gives them toughness. In this regard I think 4e multiclassing is weak. You are training in a second class to learn from that class and you are always going to be denied some of the most basic class features that make that class what it is.

For our next issue of our magazine, Dragon Roots, I am working on a dual class option to solve this problem. I won't say more now, but keep your ideas and comments coming please.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think the cerry picking is totally gone from multiclassing in 4e. As an example, if you multiclass into a ranger, while you can make attacks with two weapons, you don't gain the two weapon fighting style feat which allows them to use any one handed weapon in the off hand and also gives them toughness. In this regard I think 4e multiclassing is weak. You are training in a second class to learn from that class and you are always going to be denied some of the most basic class features that make that class what it is.

For our next issue of our magazine, Dragon Roots, I am working on a dual class option to solve this problem. I won't say more now, but keep your ideas and comments coming please.

Martial Power has a few other Multiclassing feats that grant you other abilities. Some require Paragon Multiclassing, but some do not. I think there is at least one Ranger multiclass feat that gives you another skill and the ability to wield a one-handed weapon in your off-hand. You can think of more along these lines (though it might not be wise to have too many of them either...

 

[Shroomy]

4e multi-classing is much more than just the multi-class feats. Those are major parts of a larger system that also includes class specific feats, general feats, paragon paths, paragon multi-classing, and even epic destinies (the very cool martial archetype destiny in Martial Power). I'm currently playing an eladrin artificer multi-classed into rogue, and I've only taken the initial multi-class feat (Sneak of Shadows), which gave me skill training in Thievery and sneak attack 1/encounter. I haven't taken any power swap feats (yet) because my sneak attack synergizes nicely with my current selection of artificer powers, all of which use crossbows and any melee weapon of my choice (which is now the rapier).

I plan on taking the Watchers of the Night PP (from Dragon 366), an eladrin racial path for rogues that mixes rogue elements with the arcane (effectively, I'm doubling up on the multi-classing here), and my feat selection has been geared around making me more "rogue-like," even if strictly speaking, they are not class specific feats (Quick Draw, Nimble Blade, Weapon Proficiency [rapier] are my current feats, and I also have Ritual Caster, with rituals centered around rogue-like abilities). Soon, I will take Backstabber, Fey Gambit, and the one feat whose name escapes me, but allows you to spend an AP to deliver sneak attack damage again with your AP action.

All in all, I feel like I'm pretty much playing a very effective multi-classed character, and I've only scratched a fraction of what the system offers if I really wanted to pursue the 4e multi-class options.

 

[rowport]

The first multiclassing feats are a great deal-- a bit of power flexibility plus a trained skill.

The power substitution feats are not worth the cost, except perhaps in very specific (cherry-picked) situations with synergy of that power to the base class abilities. If the benchmark purpose of multiclassing is to allow flexibility in character design, it fails here, because the trade-off is not worth the cost of the feat for most "character-driven" builds, and instead is only worth it for power-game intent.

The paragon multiclassing is lame for anybody. Giving up paragon path powers is just *way* too costly. I get the notion of flexibility being the trade-off for power, but do not buy the argument.

Generally, 4e multiclassing just forces the character to give up too much in exchange for too little.

 

[thundershot]

I like it in some ways, and dislike it in others. I think the player should, over the course of gaining levels, have the ABILITY to get all of the core class features of the second class. I don't see why a Ranger who multiclasses into a Wizard can't have a feat that gives him Cantrip or the ability to have a spellbook (multiple dailies). Maybe we just haven't gotten that far yet. The Martial Power book gives us a few Ranger class abilities for multis...

Other than that, I think it's silly to blow feats to EXCHANGE powers. Why not just have a single feat for each class, and let you take one power from that class at each tier. No need for 4 feats, and it'd be spread out. Then have some optional feats in case you do want more.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I like it in some ways, and dislike it in others. I think the player should, over the course of gaining levels, have the ABILITY to get all of the core class features of the second class. I don't see why a Ranger who multiclasses into a Wizard can't have a feat that gives him Cantrip or the ability to have a spellbook (multiple dailies). Maybe we just haven't gotten that far yet. The Martial Power book gives us a few Ranger class abilities for multis...

Other than that, I think it's silly to blow feats to EXCHANGE powers. Why not just have a single feat for each class, and let you take one power from that class at each tier. No need for 4 feats, and it'd be spread out. Then have some optional feats in case you do want more.

I think taking a multiclassing feat should give you more.

NOOOOOOO! not right away

I think you should be able to do something like swap out an at-will with your new class and gain a class feature and/or skill. Then do power swaps at later levels. I could see additional powers being taken with feats at higher levels, but, even though i am considering a swordmage/wizard for a current campaign, I think the ability to gain a power by wasting a feat and just swaping it out blows. 4 feats and all you are really gaining is a skill, which you probably got from your other class, and the ability to "swap" powers. On the surface it seems weak to me. IMO.

 

[Plane Sailing]

What is your thoughts on multiclassing?

I like the principle, but not the execution.

I'm currently playtesting a variant where:

a) Your basic multiclassing feat has no prereqs, and if you take it you swap one of your at-will powers for an at-will from your multiclass. It also opens the doors for other multiclass feats.

b) the encounter attack, utility and daily attack power swap feats exist as per normal

c) There are additional class power feats which can be taken to gain specific class abilities from the multiclass (e.g. 'warlocks curse' and then 'fey pact boon', or 'burly rogue' and then 'sneak attack'). Members of a class can take class power feats for aspects of their class too (so a tactical warlord could take the 'inspiring warlord' special ability (I forget what it is called).

d) paragon multiclassing doesn't exist (it is subsumed effectively by the above options).

Cheers