What Items Can a PC Purchase?

[Harm]

In the past year on these boards I've seen at least fifteen threads devoted solely to how many or how powerful magic items should be available and how their availability should be limited. Every time it basically comes down to the DMs judgement because it's his campaign and his world. That said maybe we should consider maintaining the power curve but altering the formula?

Hard to alter the formula when the entire game is written on it. The DCs for saves and the ACs of higher lever monsters assume your character has appropriate gear. A near epic fighter without a cloak of resistance +5 is pretty much boned on ever making a single save on a mob of an appropriate CR. Likewise the mob will have no chance of missing aside from rolling a 1 unless the fighter also has +5 or near armour, deflection, shield and natural armour bonuses. As well a lot of the higher level mobs are pushing ACs that you're going to need +6 strength and a +5 weapon to even hit more than once a round.

I find if you don't give characters access to magic items that are roughly equivalent to the "character wealth" chart then monsters of the appropriate CR, which means appropriate XP amount, need to be dumbed down. Otherwise melee are never missed, mages flop over dead when looked at funny and damage dealers never hit or have their spells resisted.

 

[frankthedm]

[sblock=Equipment list]Axe, orc double~60 gp~15 lb.
Acid (flask)~10 gp~1 lb.
Alchemist’s fire (flask)~20 gp~1 lb.
Alchemist’s lab~500 gp~40 lb.
Ale, Gallon~2 sp~8 lb.
Ale, Mug~4 cp~1 lb.
Animal Feed (day)~5 cp~10 lb.
Antitoxin (vial)~50 gp~—
Armor spikes~+50 gp~+10 lb.
Artisan’s tools~5 gp~5 lb.
Artisan’s tools, MW~55 gp~5 lb.
Axe, throwing~8 gp~2 lb.
Backpack (empty)~2 gp~2 lb.
Ballista~500 gp~—
Banded mail~250 gp~35 lb.
Banquet (per person)~10 gp~—
Barrel (empty)~2 gp~30 lb.
Basket (empty)~4 sp~1 lb.
Battleaxe~10 gp~6 lb.
Bedroll~1 sp~5 lb.
Bell ~1 gp~—
Bit and bridle~2 gp~1 lb.
Blanket, winter~5 sp~3 lb.
Block and tackle~5 gp~5 lb.
Bolas~5 gp~2 lb.
Bottle, wine, glass~2 gp~—
Bow, arrows (20)~1 gp~3 lb.
Bow, comp short, ~75 gp~2 lb.
Bow, comp.long, ~100 gp~3 lb.
Bow, long~75 gp~3 lb.
Bow, Short~30 gp~2 lb.
Bread, per loaf~2 cp~1/2 lb.
Breastplate~200 gp~30 lb.
Bucket (empty)~5 sp~2 lb.
Buckler~15 gp~5 lb.
Caltrops~1 gp~2 lb.
Candle~1 cp~—
Canvas (sq. yd.)~1 sp~1 lb.
Carriage~100 gp~600 lb.
Cart~15 gp~200 lb.
Case, map or scroll~1 gp~1/2 lb.
Castle~500,000 gp~—
Castle, huge~1,000,000 gp~—
Catapult, heavy~800 gp~—
Catapult, light~550 gp~—
C-bow, repeat heavy~400 gp~12 lb.
C-bow, repeat light~250 gp~6 lb.
Chain (10 ft.)~30 gp~2 lb.
Chain shirt~100 gp~25 lb.
Chain, spiked~25 gp~10 lb.
Chainmail~150 gp~40 lb.
Chalk, 1 piece~1 cp~—
Cheese, hunk of~1 sp~1/2 lb.
Chest (empty)~2 gp~25 lb.
Chicken $~2 cp~—
Cinnamon $~1 gp~1 lb.
Climber’s kit~80 gp~5 lb.1
Cloths, Artisan’s~1 gp~4 lb.
Cloths, Cleric’s~5 gp~6 lb.
Cloths, Cold weather~8 gp~7 lb.
Cloths, Courtier’s~30 gp~6 lb.
Cloths, Entertainer’s ~3 gp~4 lb.
Cloths, Explorer’s ~10 gp~8 lb.
Cloths, Monk’s ~5 gp~2 lb.
Cloths, Noble’s ~75 gp~10 lb.
Cloths, Peasant’s ~1 sp~2 lb.
Cloths, Royal ~200 gp~15 lb.
Cloths, Scholar’s ~5 gp~6 lb.
Cloths, Traveler’s ~1 gp~5 lb.
Cloves $~15 gp~1 lb.
Club~—~3 lb.
Copper $~5 sp~1 lb.
Cow $~10 gp~—
Crossbow bolts (10)~1 gp~1 lb.
Crossbow, hand~100 gp~2 lb.
Crossbow, heavy~50 gp~8 lb.
Crossbow, light~35 gp~4 lb.
Crowbar~2 gp~5 lb.
Dagger~2 gp~1 lb.
Dagger, punching~2 gp~1 lb.
Dart~5 sp~1/2 lb.
Disguise kit~50 gp~8 lb.
Dog, guard~25 gp~—
Dog, riding~150 gp~—
Donkey or mule~8 gp~—
Everburning torch~110 gp~1 lb.
Falchion~75 gp~8 lb.
Firewood (per day)~1 cp~20 lb.
Fishhook~1 sp~—
Fishing net, 25 sq. ft.~4 gp~5 lb.
Flail~8 gp~5 lb.
Flail, dire~90 gp~10 lb.
Flail, heavy~15 gp~10 lb.
Flask (empty)~3 cp~1-1/2 lb.
Flint and steel~1 gp~—
Flour $~2 cp~1 lb.
Full plate~1,500 gp~50 lb.
Galley~30,000 gp~—
Gauntlet~2 gp~1 lb.
Gauntlet, locked~8 gp~+5 lb.
Gauntlet, spiked~5 gp~1 lb.
Ginger $~2 gp~1 lb.
Glaive~8 gp~10 lb.
Goat $~1 gp~—
Gold $~50 gp~1 lb.
Grappling hook~1 gp~4 lb.
Greataxe~20 gp~12 lb.
Greatclub~5 gp~8 lb.
Greatsword~50 gp~8 lb.
Guisarme~9 gp~12 lb.
Halberd~10 gp~12 lb.
Half-plate~600 gp~50 lb.
Hammer~5 sp~2 lb.
Hammer, hooked~20 gp~6 lb.
Hammer, light~1 gp~2 lb.
Handaxe~6 gp~3 lb.
Healer’s kit~50 gp~1 lb.
Hide armor~15 gp~25 lb.
Holly and mistletoe~—~—
Holy symbol, silver~25 gp~1 lb.
Holy symbol, wooden~1 gp~—
Holy water (flask)~25 gp~1 lb.
Horse, heavy~200 gp~—
Horse, light~75 gp~—
Hourglass~25 gp~1 lb.
House, Grand~5,000 gp~—
House, Simple~1,000 gp~—
Ink (1 oz. vial)~8 gp~—
Inkpen~1 sp~—
Inn stay, Common~5 sp~—
Inn stay, Good~2 gp~—
Inn stay, Poor~2 sp~—
Iron $~1 sp~1 lb.
Javelin~1 gp~2 lb.
Jug, clay~3 cp~9 lb.
Kama ~2 gp~2 lb.
Keelboat~3,000 gp~—
Keep~150,000 gp~—
Kukri~8 gp~2 lb.
Ladder, 10-foot~5 cp~20 lb.
Lamp, common~1 sp~1 lb.
Lance~10 gp~10 lb.
Lantern, bullseye~12 gp~3 lb.
Lantern, hooded~7 gp~2 lb.
Leather armor~10 gp~15 lb.
Linen [sq. yard] $~4 gp~—
Lock, Amazing~150 gp~1 lb.
Lock, Average~40 gp~1 lb.
Lock, Good~80 gp~1 lb.
Lock, Very simple~20 gp~1 lb.
Longship~10,000 gp~—
Longspear~5 gp~9 lb.
Longsword~15 gp~4 lb.
Mace, heavy~12 gp~8 lb.
Mace, light~5 gp~4 lb.
Magnifying glass~100 gp~—
Manacles~15 gp~2 lb.
Manacles, MW~50 gp~2 lb.
Mansion~100,000 gp~—
Meals, Common~3 sp~—
Meals, Good~5 sp~—
Meals, Poor~1 sp~—
Meat, chunk of~3 sp~1/2 lb.
Mirror, small steel~10 gp~1/2 lb.
Moat with bridge~50,000 gp~—
Morningstar~8 gp~6 lb.
Mug/Tankard, clay~2 cp~1 lb.
Musical instrument, common~5 gp~3 lb.
Musical instrument, MW~100 gp~3 lb.
Net~20 gp~—
Nunchaku~2 gp~2 lb.
Oar~2 gp~10 lb.
Oil (1-pint flask)~1 sp~1 lb.
Ox $~15 gp~—
Padded armor~5 gp~10 lb.
Paper (sheet)~4 sp~—
Parchment (sheet)~2 sp~—
Pepper $~2 gp~1 lb.
Pick, heavy~8 gp~6 lb.
Pick, light~4 gp~3 lb.
Pick, miner’s~3 gp~10 lb.
Pig $~3 gp~—
Pitcher, clay~2 cp~5 lb.
Piton~1 sp~1/2 lb.
Platinum $~500 gp~1 lb.
Pole, 10-foot~2 sp~8 lb.
Pony~30 gp~—
Pot, iron~5 sp~10 lb.
Pouch, belt (empty)~1 gp~1/2 lb.
Quarterstaff~—~4 lb.
Ram (siege weapon)~1,000 gp~—
Ram, portable~10 gp~20 lb.
Ranseur~10 gp~12 lb.
Rapier~20 gp~2 lb.
Rations, trail ( day)~5 sp~1 lb.
Ring, platinum~50 gp~—
Ring, Signet~5 gp~—
Rope, hempen (50 ft.)~1 gp~10 lb.
Rope, silk (50 ft.)~10 gp~5 lb.
Rowboat~50 gp~100 lb.
Sack (empty)~1 sp~1/2 lb.
Saddle, Ex. Military~60 gp~40 lb.
Saddle, Ex. Pack~15 gp~20 lb.
Saddle, Ex. Riding~30 gp~30 lb.
Saddle, Military~20 gp~30 lb.
Saddle, Pack~5 gp~15 lb.
Saddle, Riding~10 gp~25 lb.
Saddlebags~4 gp~8 lb.
Saffron $~15 gp~1 lb.
Sai~1 gp~1 lb.
Sailing ship~10,000 gp~—
Salt $~5 gp~1 lb.
Sap~1 gp~2 lb.
Scale mail~50 gp~30 lb.
Scale, merchant’s~2 gp~1 lb.
Scimitar~15 gp~4 lb.
Scythe~18 gp~10 lb.
Sealing wax~1 gp~1 lb.
Sewing needle~5 sp~—
Sheep $~2 gp~—
Shield spikes~+10 gp~+5 lb.
Shield, heavy steel~20 gp~15 lb.
Shield, heavy wood~7 gp~10 lb.
Shield, light steel~9 gp~6 lb.
Shield, light wood~3 gp~5 lb.
Shield, tower~30 gp~45 lb.
Shortspear~1 gp~3 lb.
Shuriken (5)~1 gp~1/2 lb.
Siangham~3 gp~1 lb.
Sickle~6 gp~2 lb.
Siege tower~2,000 gp~—
Signal whistle~8 sp~—
silk [sq. yard] $~10 gp~—
Silver $~5 gp~1 lb.
Sled~20 gp~300 lb.
Sledge~1 gp~10 lb.
Sling~—~0 lb.
Sling Bullets (10)~1 sp~5 lb.
Smokestick~20 gp~1/2 lb.
Soap (per lb.)~5 sp~1 lb.
Spade or shovel~2 gp~8 lb.
Spear~2 gp~6 lb.
Spell comp. pouch~5 gp~2 lb.
Spellbook, (blank)~15 gp~3 lb.
Splint mail~200 gp~45 lb.
Spyglass~1,000 gp~1 lb.
Stabling (per day)~5 sp~—
Studded leather~25 gp~20 lb.
Sunrod~2 gp~1 lb.
Sword, bastard~35 gp~6 lb.
Sword, short~10 gp~2 lb.
Sword, two-bladed~100 gp~10 lb.
Tanglefoot bag~50 gp~4 lb.
Tent~10 gp~20 lb.
Thieves’ tools~30 gp~1 lb.
Thieves’ tools, MW~100 gp~2 lb.
Thunderstone~30 gp~1 lb.
Tindertwig~1 gp~—
tobacco $~5 sp~1 lb.
Tool, MW~50 gp~1 lb.
Torch~1 cp~1 lb.
Tower~50,000 gp~—
Trident~15 gp~4 lb.
Urgrosh, dwarven~50 gp~12 lb.
Vial, ink or potion~1 gp~1/10 lb.
Wagon~35 gp~400 lb.
Waraxe, dwarven~30 gp~8 lb.
Warhammer~12 gp~5 lb.
Warhorse, heavy~400 gp~—
Warhorse, light~150 gp~—
Warpony~100 gp~—
Warship~25,000 gp~—
Water clock~1,000 gp~200 lb.
Waterskin~1 gp~4 lb.
Wheat $~1 cp~1 lb.
Whetstone~2 cp~1 lb.
Whip~1 gp~2 lb.
Wine (pitcher)~2 sp~6 lb.
Wine, Fine (bottle)~10 gp~1-1/2 lb. [/sblock]

$ Sells full value
MW Masterwork
— Unlisted

 

[Li Shenron]

It would seem to me the most "realistic" way to handle it would be to generate semi-random item lists for shops in a community by rolling on the treasure tables relative to the size of the community (ala Baldur's Gate and similar fantasy games). But this would hardly be practical...

How do you judge the availability of items for your campaign? Do you just wing it, letting the PCs ask if an item is available and rolling dice to see if it is or deciding on the fly? Do you have charts for various localities listing the typical items available? Do you maintain special lists of items in specific store inventories?

I use the semi-random item lists way, except that I don't typically roll a list everytime, but instead either I make up a list myself without rolling (if I expect the party to go shopping) or if I am caught unprepared I ask them what they're looking for and roll their chance on the spot.

I also use a sort of reference table with rarities of different items, that the players can read to get a general view of what is available and how. This is a short breakdown of my rarities:

A "common" item is something that they can generally go & find on sale in the appropriate shop, unless they're in an unsuitable area (e.g. a very small village) or under special circumstances (e.g. shortage of steel). They are usually "on the shelf" because they're cheap and needed enough that they can be sold easily.
Examples: any mundane tool, almost all PHB weapons and shields, popular MW swords, cheap healing magic potions (e.g. Cure Wounds, Remove Disease), some alchemical items (antitoxin, tindertwig, smokestick, acid)

An "uncommon" item is something whose craft is common knowledge but it isn't cheap or needed enough to be on sale all the time, hence you're either lucky or you have to wait some days before it's crafted for you.
Examples: masterwork weapons and shields (every blacksmith can make masterwork weapons, but with so many weapons possible and few customers, it may be hard to find a MW ranseur on the shelf for example), and all armors (just because they need to be tailor-made), cantrips scrolls

A "rare" item requires to find someone who holds the specific knowledge to make it and that means some little effort, anything between a Gather Info check to a quest, depending on how powerful the item is.
Examples: basically everything magic except basic healing potions, plus certain weapons (double weapons, repeating crossbows), special materials (mithral, adamantine) and some alchemical substances (tanglefoot bags).
Note that rare items can be uncommon or even common is certain locations or among a specific race.

An "unavailable" item is something that it is not known how to make it, or if someone knows how to make it. This is just a way to control the availability of certain magic or special items that I may have problems with (such an Animated Shield or a Mercurial Greatsword ). It doesn't mean it's completely banned, because usually I let the PC have *anything* from allowed books as long as it is chosen at character creation (they can make up their story about where the item comes from), and because their characters can always find a way to learn making the item themselves, although gathering the knowledge is not the same as just meeting the prerequisites.

The above may seem like a strict rule, but in practice it really isn't, it's just a way to tell the players that I will keep control on what they can buy.

 

[Veril]

Gather Information or Diplomacy. These are the skills to find items and/or to buy them, I let people use either, setting DC's based on the value of the item and the locale they are in. I'd need to check my notes, but broadly it's something like

DC15 + Value/500.

It's a full day action to make the roll (i.e. you cannot be dong anything else with your time).

There are plusses for the size of the place you are at.

One of gather information/diplomacy is the better skill to use, depending on the place you are at, the other gets minus'

If I feel an item is uncommon or rare I have an add hoc 2 to 5 modifer. I'm always free to say something is unavailable.

Paying over the odds gets the players a beneficial modifier (every +10% is +2)

Characters can assist as per usual (again, full day action).

For consumable items (potions of cure light wounds typicall) every 1 pt the players beat the DC by lets them buy another one. (I also use the total party CHA bonus as a limit for each type of potion)

 

[Whimsical]

I also use Gather Info and Diplomacy. My 12th level party was visiting Sasserine to buy magic items. The "Diplomancer" rolls a gather information check and what the roll result reflects is that the PC has found out who in the area possesses this item, regardless of whether it is intended to be sold or not. I use the DC 10 + gp/2000 formula for a Large City like Sasserine, with a +10 DC modifier for items that are greater than the 40,000 gp city gp limit. For every point above the DC, the character has found an additional possessor of the item. This can affect his single diplomacy check to acquire the item.

two possessors found = +2 Diplomacy
three or four possessors = + 4 Diplomacy
five to eight possessors = +6 Diplomacy
nine to 16 possessors = +8 Diplomacy
and so on.

Rolling a DC 45 in a Large City result when searching for rings of protection will reveal one possessor of a +5 ring, 19 possessors of a +4 ring, 26 possessors of a +3 ring, 36 possessors of a +4 ring, and 39 possessors of a +1 ring. DC 45 can be achieved by someone with a +25 Gather Info taking twenty, which takes (1d4+1)x20 hours.

What's fun is informing the player that his Gather Info check has revealed to him that one of his fellow PCs has the item he is looking for.

For buying and selling, I use a simple formula:
Buying = 110% - Diplomacy result% of book value
Selling = 40% + Diplomacy result% of book value

If the NPC they are selling to or buying from beats their diplomacy check with their opposed diplomacy check, then they just buy at book value and sell at half book value.

This formula breaks down for me at higher levels simply because I believe that the famous PCs would be able to sell the magic items that they have used in their legendary exploits for double or triple book value. But I chalk it up to game balance and that they are already getting more than the wealth expected for their level because they have a diplomancer (diplomonster) in the party.

 

[XO]

Roll With It!

You either accept the hgh-magic setting or reject it!

Forgotten Realms are high flaunted magic... That setting is even one or two steps above high-magic.

Other games or versions of D&D (d20 settings such as Black Company) dampen that a lot.

If you want to impose serious limits, run a Midnight campaign.

Otherwise, in a "standard" game (if there is such a thing), you are actively penalizing adventurers if you do not grant them a standard chance to acquire the magic items they want. Why? Because under the current rule set, and there are better RPG rules but we still abide by D&D, the character inventory is an inherent part of his "power". This has been aptly demonstrated in EL calculations and simulations based on NPCs with std items, half std items, and no items. Characters without items are essentially wet firecrackers... Sputtering but useless (in most cases).

As to magic shops not selling to adventurers, go to Rodeo Drive looking a little funky, but show cash or Amex, and see whether anyone will actually reject your attempt to purchase. Not likely! The merchant must move the merchandise if he is to make a profit. When a magic item list comprises a potential of hundreds of items, if ANYONE wants a specific item you have in stock, "Got the gold? It's yours!"

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Hard to alter the formula when the entire game is written on it. The DCs for saves and the ACs of higher lever monsters assume your character has appropriate gear. A near epic fighter without a cloak of resistance +5 is pretty much boned on ever making a single save on a mob of an appropriate CR. Likewise the mob will have no chance of missing aside from rolling a 1 unless the fighter also has +5 or near armour, deflection, shield and natural armour bonuses. As well a lot of the higher level mobs are pushing ACs that you're going to need +6 strength and a +5 weapon to even hit more than once a round.

I find if you don't give characters access to magic items that are roughly equivalent to the "character wealth" chart then monsters of the appropriate CR, which means appropriate XP amount, need to be dumbed down. Otherwise melee are never missed, mages flop over dead when looked at funny and damage dealers never hit or have their spells resisted.

I believe I was misunderstood. I never said to remove their access to the effect. I said that perhaps the problem was in tying the effect to a discreet item that the character either needs huge amounts of gold to buy or needs the DM to drop it for him. Remove the effect from the item, apply it as an effect to the character and any applicable gear the character uses without tying it to specific object.

1.) Partially this could be dealt with by removing money as a balancing tool for many sorts of magical enhancements, especially the weapon and armor enhancements in particular though not them exclusively. Instead of treating the bonus as applied to a specific object treat it as an enhancement to the character themself and any tool they use to which the enhancement may apply. It has the effect of making a character more innately heroic and the DM no longer has to drop the appropriate items at particular times or allow the PCs to buy them. This doesn't deal with items that are themselves magical those have to be handled differently.
EXAMPLE: A Level 11 fighter has chosen the following enhancements- +1 enhancement bonus, Ghost Touch, and Flaming. He applies those qualities to any weapon he uses. So whether it's a sword, or bow, or his fists they all get the bonus. On the other hand if a town guard picks up the sword it won't be anything but a normal sword to him.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I believe this is similar to the Iron Heroes approach, but I could be wrong.

I suppose if you had an Earthdawn-like setting, where everyone had some magical power (e.g. warrior's high hit points and rapid number of attacks was magic), then it might work well. You sacrifice lewt to your Gawd and he grants you powers, in Hackmaster terms.

Hmmm, make anything with a plus-type bonus (+1 natural armor, +5 shield, etc) capable of being inherent. Shield and armor bonuses would be dependant on having those items. Item creation would be limited to expendable stuff, weird spell effects and "legacy" treasures intentionally made for later generations.

Hmmm. I like it.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I've been keeping an eye on Iron Heroes though I haven't gotten any of the books. But I really should take a look at how they handled it damping the magic item proliferation while keeping the power curve. Fairly soon I think I'll get IH and AE to see about further mutating a homebrew that's already so modified it's really an OGL rather than D&D anymore, possibly Conan too.

 

[Li Shenron]

Otherwise, in a "standard" game (if there is such a thing), you are actively penalizing adventurers if you do not grant them a standard chance to acquire the magic items they want. Why? Because under the current rule set, and there are better RPG rules but we still abide by D&D, the character inventory is an inherent part of his "power". This has been aptly demonstrated in EL calculations and simulations based on NPCs with std items, half std items, and no items. Characters without items are essentially wet firecrackers... Sputtering but useless (in most cases).

First, you can throw EL away. Use CR that makes more sense.

Second, this thread is not originally about giving PCs less equipment! It's just about their chances of getting specific items at any given time. It doesn't make them useless, and it might actually forces them to use something they found in treasure until they can "convert" it to an item they prefer (but even if the treasure item is not what they want, consider also that is worth twice as much as what they will get in exchange for it).

Have you ever played a RPG computer game? Can you find any possibly existing item on sale anywhere? Does this make the game impossible to play?

Last, if really your characters feel like they are too weak, all you have to do is adjust the encounters appropriately, give NPCs suboptimal gear for example or reduce the CR.
The fact is, we have never needed to do that... in my practical experience these limitations don't really change the game at all. We still use the same CR encounters as everyone else, and we don't see PCs dying every other session.