What language is the Common of our world?

[Nyeshet]

My Chinese colleagues have no problem whatsoever with quickly typing their Chinese character letters on a standard US keyboard. They just type everything in Pinyin, and the computer changes this to Chinese characters, as you described in your Japanese example.

So let me see if I have this right. They have to type in another written language (either english letters for chinese or the japanese syllabary hiragana characters for japanese), then the computer notices the letters (or syllables, in the case of japanese hiragana) can form a word, so it takes the most likely word and replaces the letters / hiragana with the necessary character.

This suggests that they do not use a keyboard with their kanji upon it, instead relying on english letters (for chinese) or hiragana (for japanese). Before computers, were they limited purely to such non-kanji script when writing on a typewriter? I know with Chinese they could (and did, for a looooong time as I think they created the printing press or an equivalent) use the block type, in which case each character on the page had to be carefully arranged before printing. That would be too slow for modern needs, of course, but it would work for a language with 10k+ official kanji. I think if you throw in the non-official and historical ones the number jumps to around 30-50k kanji.

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Getting back to this post, I don't think anyone is saying that English is the international common tongue in the sense of a universal language. Rather, they are saying that its ubiquity suggests that it is the closest thing to such a thing as 3e or 3.5e 'common' tongue, and that from the 1e (2e?) perspective of the common tongue merely being a common trade language of little use outside of that (and little known beyond those that travel or trade often) English nearly is this world's common tongue.

 

[Turjan]

While there might be a great deal of new slang by then, our technology is probably doing a good deal to slow down change in English vocabulary...

Not only this, but also the standardized education. The development of a national school system with standardized topics nowdays does not only eliminate most of the still living dialects, but also slows down the evolution of language.

 

[Turjan]

So let me see if I have this right. They have to type in another written language (either english letters for chinese or the japanese syllabary hiragana characters for japanese), then the computer notices the letters (or syllables, in the case of japanese hiragana) can form a word, so it takes the most likely word and replaces the letters / hiragana with the necessary character.

In my example for Standard Mandarin, they type in the official transliteration (phonemic notation and transcription to Roman script) on a normal keyboard. This has been standardized since 1979 in the PR China and is also the official transliteration in Singapore. My colleague says that it's very easy to use. She just has to type as she speaks.

Here is the Wikipedia article on Hanyu Pinyin.

 

[shadow]

When I am able to talk any person on the planet using only English; when English becomes everyone's first language; when the last translator is put out of business - then I will see English as the "common" language.
I think that a lot of people in this thread think that because English is very prominent that it somehow constitutes the "common tongue" found in most D&D games. As I mentioned previously, in D&D common is considered the language every creature speaks by default. The 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting goes as far as to state "[a]lmost all intelligent creatures one might encounter can understand and speak common..." Sure English is very prominent in international politics, trade, and technology, but try talking to an uneducated person living in a small village in a non-English speaking country. If English really were the "common tongue" translators and ESL teachers would be out of a job.

 

[Dr Simon]

I think a mis-assumption that seems to be being made is that all creatures that speak Common can speak it to the same degree. Probably not helped by the fact that D&D languages are either/or in your ability rather than graded.

Sure, an orc can speak Common, but he's more likely to say "Me smash" than "Allow me to disagree with your initial hypothesis." This, to me, is much like the ability of large portions of the world's population to say "Hello", "You buy, five dollar?" and "David Beckham okay!". That's "speaking English" but it doesn't make for much conversation. In my opinion, though, one can get by reasonably well with knowing a few pleasantries, counting to ten, yes, no, and the question words in *any* language. Or failing that, speak English.


Something I haven't seen addressed yet (although I have skim-read) is what the origins of Common are in D&D settings. If the source is Tolkien ("...in the Common Tongue it reads..."), then his Common language was a sort of watered down Numenorean, itself a sort of watered-down elvish. And the Elven langauges were 'true' in a certain sense, in that elven names and words had magical power through being such an accurate description or way of talking that you could make what you were talking about obey you. (I don't recall the source exactly but either LOTR Appendices, Letters of JRRT or Lost/Unfinished Tales).

So, from a point of view that Common = Numenorean then you have a language that is widespread due to prior conquest, where the Sea Kings ruled most of western Middle Earth and taught their language to their happy, willing subject peoples. This langauge remained even when the originators had gone. That to me says English. A case could be made for other languages such as Spanish, Dutch and Mandarin Chinese for similar reasons but English was initially the most widespread because (a) we got everywhere, (b) that included some of the largest populations like India and parts of China, (c) it emerged as the primary language of America who are also now everywhere on satellite TV.

Further, English is quite inclusive of langauge and very flexible in it's application compared to other possibilities like German or Latin. You don't need to decline your noun endings for a sentence to sense be making, and you all sorts of ways the sentence may arrange and tenses be changed and still it is reading mainly with some intelligibilitiness.

There are other possibilities for the origins of Common, however. A pidgin tongue, like Tagalog. Can't portray very complex ideas. A standardized variant, perhaps Latin as a very formalised set of grammatical rules from which off-shoots can apply. Perhaps it is even a written language common to sub-tongues, like Chinese pictograms which mean the same when read my a Cantonese speaker from Hong Kong as by someone from Inner Mongolia, but pronounced in hugely different ways.

 

[Mycanid]

Well ... I voted for English but only with the specification that it is the current common language.

Things change as the centuries roll by, though.

 

[wingsandsword]

The 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting goes as far as to state "[a]lmost all intelligent creatures one might encounter can understand and speak common..."

All speaking peoples, including the humans of the various lands possess a native tongue. In addition, all humans and many nonhumans speak Common as a second language. Common grew from a kind of pidgin Chondathan and is most closely related to that language, but it is far simpler and less expressive. Nuances of speech, naming and phrasing are better conveyed in the older, more mature languages since Common is little more than a trade language.

The great advantage of Common, of course, is its prevalence. Everybody in the Heartlands speaks Common well enough to get by in any but the most esoteric conversations. Even in remote areas such as Murghom and Samarach, just about everybody knows enough common to speak it badly. They might need to point or pantomime in a pinch, but they can make themselves understood.

It also goes on to mention that there are over 80 distinct languages spoken in Faerun, excluding local dialects (and 6 alphabets used: Espruar, Dethek, Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, and Thorass), and 7 dead languages that still see use in academic circles or are often found in ruins or on relics.

Even though people speak Common, it's almost always as a second language, with languages like Aglarondan, Chondathan, Alzhedo, Chultan, Damaran, Dambrathan, Durpari, Uluik, Halruaan, Tuigan, Shaaran, Tashalan, Lantanese, Illuskan, Mulhorandi, Rashemi, Netherese, Turmic, Untheric and Tethyrian, or a racial language as a first language.

Also, it's clear that Common is specific to Faerun, it isn't used in Maztica, Zakhara, or Kara Tur (Nexalan, Midani and Shou are the local equivalents). It's not like Common has replaced all other languages in the world, it's a de-facto trade language on one continent that is spoken by the human population to by a significant portion of the nonhuman population.

Now, I think part of this argument comes from debating exactly what common is. To some people, it's a language that replaces all others, every sentient being speaks fluently, and is everybody's first language. To others, it's a language that is widely understood throughout the world and people "speak" it with widely varying levels of skill, and is merely a de-facto Common among many other languages. The fact that D&D is not a detailed simulation of the cultures and linguistics of a fantasy world means that the PHB RAW are simplifed and assume a common language just to sidestep linguistics issues, and it probably never comes up in most campaigns.

So, what if you were playing in a campaign where there were dozens of widely spoken languages throughout the world, with most kingdoms and realms having a local language, but one language, the language of a former world-spanning Empire a century ago and a different kingdom which is the most powerful in the world, is spoken worldwide as a very common second language, which almost everybody in trade, diplomacy, magical research, or world travel understands at least enough to muddle through, and bards are fond of singing songs and telling stories in this language worldwide, and it's called "Common". Would you say that there is no "real Common" in this setting because it's not like the RAW from the PHB, or could you accept that not every setting will be just like the PHB, and "Common" can vary from setting to setting?

You're not going to be able to shoehorn the real world into D&D RAW very easily, no easier than you can make a bar fight work in 5-foot squares, but the basic concept of a widely spoken language that is the de-facto language of travel, trade and diplomacy does exist in the real world as English.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

That is still nowhere as pervasive as common is in the RAW D&D world, in which every race speaks it, without exception.

Really?

Let's see. Starting with 'A'.

Aboleth. Aboleth speak their own language and Undercommon.

Achaierai speak Infernal.

Allips don't communicate intelligently at all.

Angels speak Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal-- but they have the tongues ability.


Still, that should suffice to disprove the assertion.


I have to think that folks here who don't think English is the "Common" of our world are primarily mistaken as to the use of Common in D&D. Common is not ubiquitous. Like English, Common does not penetrate to every corner of the world, planar or extra-planar.

It is, however, the primary language of the dominant culture-- exactly as is English.

So, anyhow. I think folks are giving Common too much credit, which in turn gives them pause in declaring English as our Common.

If the poll hadn't specified "21st Century" I was prepared to vote for Latin (the other dominant culture in our history).

 

[shadow]

I suppose that some people play a campaign setting where common is more of a diplomatic trade language. However, in every D&D campaign setting that I've played in common acts as more of a universal default language that every sentient creature speaks. I've never played in a campaign where players had to hire interpreters or had communication hampered by the fact that NPCs speak common very poorly. (As I mentioned above, I've actually had a player comment that speak language is a useless skill because of the common tongue.)

As someone who has travelled outside the US, I have been in a number of situations where the language barrier has been an issue. It's true that in most hotels and tourist areas in major cities there will be someone who speaks English, but once you leave the tourist areas it really helps to know at least some of the local language. Even the street vendors who frequent tourist areas only "speak" enough English to communicate the prices of their wares (if even that much.) Ironically, when working in Japan, a country where English is taught extensively in high school and middle school, I found that very few people could speak English enough for any serious communication. (Note that my travels have taken me to Asia, so I can't comment on the linguistic situation in Western Europe.)

It also goes on to mention that there are over 80 distinct languages spoken in Faerun, excluding local dialects (and 6 alphabets used: Espruar, Dethek, Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, and Thorass), and 7 dead languages that still see use in academic circles or are often found in ruins or on relics.

Even though people speak Common, it's almost always as a second language, with languages like Aglarondan, Chondathan, Alzhedo, Chultan, Damaran, Dambrathan, Durpari, Uluik, Halruaan, Tuigan, Shaaran, Tashalan, Lantanese, Illuskan, Mulhorandi, Rashemi, Netherese, Turmic, Untheric and Tethyrian, or a racial language as a first language.

Also, it's clear that Common is specific to Faerun, it isn't used in Maztica, Zakhara, or Kara Tur (Nexalan, Midani and Shou are the local equivalents). It's not like Common has replaced all other languages in the world, it's a de-facto trade language on one continent that is spoken by the human population to by a significant portion of the nonhuman population.

This is from the 3e Forgotten Realms Setting. It seems that in order to make the Realms more consistant and "realistic" the role of the common tongue was revised. In 2e, common was simply the default universal language.

Anyway, it seems that a lot of people have assumed that common is some type of diplomatic trade language spoken by the elite. If that is the assumption, then I suppose that you could make the case that English acts as sort of common in the real world. However, I have always assumed that common was sort of a universal language designed to sidestep any linguistic issues that could arise (that's the way it's been in every game that I've ever played in).

 

[Barak]

Really?

Let's see. Starting with 'A'.

Aboleth. Aboleth speak their own language and Undercommon.

Achaierai speak Infernal.

Allips don't communicate intelligently at all.

Angels speak Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal-- but they have the tongues ability.


Still, that should suffice to disprove the assertion.


I have to think that folks here who don't think English is the "Common" of our world are primarily mistaken as to the use of Common in D&D. Common is not ubiquitous. Like English, Common does not penetrate to every corner of the world, planar or extra-planar.

It is, however, the primary language of the dominant culture-- exactly as is English.

So, anyhow. I think folks are giving Common too much credit, which in turn gives them pause in declaring English as our Common.

If the poll hadn't specified "21st Century" I was prepared to vote for Latin (the other dominant culture in our history).

Yeah, 'cause aboleths and achaierai are really RAW races, with kingdoms and what not. That's the equivalent of saying morlocks and martians (both letter M!) don't speak english.

The fact is, all humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, half-orcs, etc.. speak common according to RAW. I can name many humans (my mom amongst them) that can't speak english. So, unless you are saying my mom is, actually, an aboleth, my argument stands.