What level is appropriate to encounter save or die effects?

[Glyfair]

- the aforementioned fungus with death spores I would only use in a party with a paladin, giving that character a chance to use their most-useless ability, cure disease n per week.

Except that paladins don't get Remove Disease until 6th level. Then its only once, when the creature affects a line. Is that appropriate for a CR 5 creature? How about a CR 4 creature (I'm pretty sure I saw at least one with a save or die effect)?

 

[lukelightning]

Save & die effect? Man, that's harsh!

 

[Lanefan]

Save & die effect? Man, that's harsh!

Yep. And what happens if you *fail* is just best left to the imagination...

Lanefan

 

[Glyfair]

Save & die effect? Man, that's harsh!

(As a complete and utter sidetrack, I did stumble over a spell in the Spell Compendium that's best effect only happens when the target fails their save. It causes the target to be more susceptible to damage. If the target fails its save, then it takes maximum damage for the duration. If it makes the save it takes +1 damage per die. So, if the target fails, is hit by an attack, and they roll maximum damage, they take more damage than if they failed.

Back to the discussion.)

 

[sckeener]

Level does not matter. Just make sure the DCs for the saves are level appropriate.

 

[wayne62682]

In my honest opinion, never. PC death should be something that comes through choice (whether good or bad) and heroic (or not so heroic) actions, not something caused because Bob happened to roll a natural 1 on a save. FWIW I wholeheartedly believe in the DM fudging encounters when this occurs.

That said, if I had to pick I would say at around level 8 or 9.

 

[Glyfair]

Level does not matter. Just make sure the DCs for the saves are level appropriate.

Assuming that the person saving is making a bad save of theirs, what do you consider an appropriate chance for that character to fail his save (assuming it's a hard to avoid effect)?

 

[lukelightning]

In my honest opinion, never. PC death should be something that comes through choice (whether good or bad) and heroic (or not so heroic) actions..

The two aren't mutually exclusive. A PC can make a bad choice and experience a SoD effect (e.g. rushing in and attacking a bodak without averting his gaze, etc.)

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I consider save or die as a break for the PC. Something happened that normally means you're dead meat, but you get a small chance to survive. You're bitten by a poisonous spider the size of a VW? Any normal man would be dead, but you get a saving throw to pull through. I like that a lot better than "well, the VW-sized spider's venom isn't THAT potent -- you can take quite a few bites, actually." I like my poisons deadly, my undead fearsome level-drainers, and my rust monsters more than a temporary annoyance. But that's just me...

I don't see PC death (or level loss, or equipment loss) as this huge downer or something that ruins the game. I see it as a consequence of dangerous adventuring...and think deadly consequences add spice to the game. Even the "deadly consequences" aren't *that* deadly. Get raised. Or roll up a new PC and get back in the game (granted, I play C&C, these days, so making a new PC is a lot faster and easier than creating a 3E PC -- especially at mid-to-high-level).

 

[Lanefan]

I don't see PC death (or level loss, or equipment loss) as this huge downer or something that ruins the game. I see it as a consequence of dangerous adventuring...and think deadly consequences add spice to the game. Even the "deadly consequences" aren't *that* deadly. Get raised. Or roll up a new PC and get back in the game (granted, I play C&C, these days, so making a new PC is a lot faster and easier than creating a 3E PC -- especially at mid-to-high-level).

Agreed completely.

Side question: why does this thread have a "GenCon" header on it? Is someone planning some nasty save-or-die action for Indy next month?

Lanefan