What Makes a Deity?

[Pseudopsyche]

I rather like the 4E creation story: the gods appeared in the Astral Sea at the birth of the universe, with the primordials appearing in the Elemental Chaos. But power isn't what makes a god a god. In fact, the early primordials were more powerful, each requiring multiple gods to defeat in battle. (I'm away from my books, but see, for example, this Dragon article). In fact, the primordials created the world; the gods simply adopted it for their own.

IMC, what sets the gods apart from other beings of supreme power is simply the fact that they created the standard humanoid races, largely in their image. They are the parent race, and their children were meant to worship them. Sure, some of these children rebel and choose to form cults around various archdevils, demon lords, or whatnot, but most civilizations retain some fealty to their progenitor deities. In other words, deities are only special if you ask one of their children, who as always share a love-hate relationship with their creators.

 

[Voadam]

I really like the 3e godless cleric option where clerics get their magic from tapping divine power but not spells being directly granted by a god. I made this the cosomological default for my game with many mistakenly believing gods granted power and lots of church dogma backing this up, but religious worship could arise around any being or philosophy actual or made up.

This allowed me to keep the nature of individual gods flexible for the needs of the current plot developments and run stuff like a theocratic civil war with both sides claiming they follow the will of the patron god while the other is corrupted by fiends, and they both have paladins and LG clerics getting their divine powers. It also allowed fake god cults, worshipping dragons and fiends, evil corruption inside good churches, heresy and schisms, secret society cults with divine magic but no gods, incompatible pantheons/cosmology legends, multiple interpretations of the same god, gods being ineffible, legends of god actions and interventions, ascension, etc.

 

[Corathon]

IMC, gods are beings that can tap into the power of mortal worship. That allows them the potential to achieve a level of power that the other big supernaturals (e.g. demon lords, slaad lords, archdevils) can't reach, but makes them somewhat dependent on mortals.

Things like demon lords can have worshippers and grant spells, but having worshippers doesn't make them any more powerful.

 

[No Name]

Right, but what exactly does that mean?

It means that even if you have never heard of Pelor, he's still the guy in charge of summer.

So even though Orcus is the demon prince of undead, Vecna is the one with the real control over that area.

I may call myself the Car King of Kansas, but without my supplier, I got nothing.

 

[the Jester]

IMC, "god" is a loosely-defined term that encompasses a lot of different types of entities.

Some are "ultra-outsiders" like in the default 4e treatment. Some are abstract entities that grant spells but don't have a physical body. Some may not even exist.

What gods do have in common, though, is that they act as a source for divine spells. Er, prayers. So you cannot have a divine power source character without having a deity to gain power from.

Edit: Which is not to say that, f'rinstance, arch-devils can't do this- it's just that the Venn diagrams showing the overlaps are complex and somewhat obscure. (e.g. Tiamat counts as an "arch-devil" and a "goddess" imc, but Mephistopholes is an arch-devil but not a god, yet still grants spells).

So what is the actual distinction? I think perhaps that it is the direction of the exchange of metaphysical energy in worship that matters. Tiamat grants her followers spells of her own energy. Mephistopholes' cultists make sacrifice to him, and he gives some of that energy back. But the flow of that energy is from cultists to devil, while with gods the flow is simultaneously from worshipers to god and from god to clerics. So at least part of the exchange leads to a "positive balance" for the cleric.

 

[Upper_Krust]

An exchange in another thread (4e Gods with Stats) got me wondering about the difference between D&D gods and other powerful supernatural beings.

What really is the difference? This isn't a rhetorical question - obviously there are differences (gods are Immortal as opposed to Elemental or Fey, for example, and most of them dwell on the Astral Sea).

But what is the difference between gods and other 'godlike' beings - archfey, demon lords, primordials, Far Realm entities, primal spirits, etc - to the characters living inside the game world?

Thats like asking whats the difference between Russians and Ukrainians. The short answer is politics.

There doesn't need to be any fundamental mechanical differences between Demon Lords and Deities and I think a lot of the time people get bogged down looking for them.

Can people worship demons and devils...of course. Can they worship primordials...it works for the Elder Elemental Eye. Same for Cthulhu and all the rest.

Obviously there is canon (feel free to share; I know some of you are subject matter experts on D&D canon and I'd love to know if there's an official line on this) but I'm mostly interested in your own take on these beings. How does it all work in your setting?

Someone brought up the topic of portfolios and I think thats an interesting point. I think if we take a look at Earth's mythology you can clearly have multiple Sun Gods (or whatever) all co-existing. In such cases (which I like to call an open cosmology*) the destruction of such a god won't have far-reaching consequences - though it might cause an eclipse or dark clouds over the land where the god is worshipped. In essence, when you have multiple beings representative of one portfolio, then either they are subordinates (either knowingly or unwittingly) to a more powerful entity which IS 'the Sun', or simply that each such beings 'tap' the portfolio in the same way mages tap magic.

*As opposed to a closed cosmology where you have only one figurehead for each portfolio.

 

[Holy Bovine]

An exchange in another thread (4e Gods with Stats) got me wondering about the difference between D&D gods and other powerful supernatural beings.

What really is the difference? This isn't a rhetorical question - obviously there are differences (gods are Immortal as opposed to Elemental or Fey, for example, and most of them dwell on the Astral Sea).

But what is the difference between gods and other 'godlike' beings - archfey, demon lords, primordials, Far Realm entities, primal spirits, etc - to the characters living inside the game world?

Obviously there is canon (feel free to share; I know some of you are subject matter experts on D&D canon and I'd love to know if there's an official line on this) but I'm mostly interested in your own take on these beings. How does it all work in your setting?

Right now I am running a 4E Mystara game where 'gods' are mostly replaced with Immortals. Immortals were once mortal beings that, through heroism, boldness or out right pure evilness, attained immortality and near-godlike statue. For all intents and purposes they are gods in Mystara. I use them as background material mostly. Religion is rarely at the front and center of games I run although the conflict between religions (re: gods) is often the main driving force.

All of the PCs worship one Immortal or another but this is often seen as paying lip service to that being without expecting anything in return. Even the cleric & paladin have little contact with their churches and are left to their own devices when it comes to deciding how they should react to or interpret events. I like this style of play as it does not shoehorn a PC into acting one way because that is how his god would want him too. I say react how you think your PC would react and let the chips fall where they may. With this in mind I purposefully keep information about an Immortal's motivations and conceits vague and general. More specific info can be learned, of course, but that involves delving into the secrets of beings that often are jealous and violent.

As for the differences between gods/Immortals and other powerful beings as perceived by the PCs there really isn't any. When you are looking at beings being a god or demi-god or immortal hero your typical 7th level adventurer is not going to notice the differences. As PCs rise in level to a certain plateau (in 1E & 2E this would have been about levels 14-18, in 3E levels 18+ and in 4E Epic (21st) tier)they begin to see a hierarchy of sorts amoung the powerful. In this case they will also notice, in my games, that there really is an uneasy balance of power amoung the different factions and none want to upset that balance unless they can be ensured of coming out on top.

 

[Skyscraper]

In my last campaign, the new gods were abstract entities that formed when magic returned to the world from the thoughts and emotions of mortals after a prolonged absence of the old gods (the old gods had been physical entities, like the extraplanar lords). These new gods did not have any physical bodies and it was a theologically discussed in the world whether they actually had conscience as we refer to it. Their "knowledge" was based solely on what someone communicated voluntarily during his prayers; and knowledge received by clerics was not in the form of "go kill that enemy of the church", it was simply an answer to questions the cleric had asked. The more vague the question, the more vague the answer, of course.

What was being discovered by (some) mortals is that you could stray away from the alignment of your god without punishment. Thus, some paladins of some gods (one in particular) were becoming real bullies in the name of righteousnous and everyone hated/feared them for it. The reason was that in fact, the gods did not have a form of conscience that would pass judgement on mortal actions. Only the church itself could do that. A paladin losing his powers meant he was brought before the church, judged and then excommunicated.

Sky

 

[MrMyth]

In many campaigns, it is about how you relate to them. Gods are protectors and guardians - they are on your side, albeit with their own days of wrath and ruin, and the expectation of worship and devotion.

The Fey are legends and lore - and some races (elves, gnomes, eladrin) might have a similar kinship to them as to gods, but to everyone else they are strange and wonderful beings only partly believed in. Or, occasionally, beings to haunt one's nightmares. One traveling in their domain might pay them respect or fear, but rarely worship from afar in the manner of the gods. Even for the learned or those close to them, there is probably a much more personal relationship to their court and to their power.

Primal Spirits are probably somewhere between the two. Some tribes may worship them, but the spirits have no need or desire for this as the gods do - the spirits are simply there, facets of the landscape. Those who bond with nature may have ties to them or, again, far more personal connections to them - but the protection they offer the world is simply the nature of such spirits, rather than part of any contract between them and their followers.

Demons and Devils are also mythic beings, and ones spoken of in whispers and fear. There may be times and places when there is no difference between Archdevils and simply evil gods - they are the stuff of cults and ill-thought out bargains. For the commonfolk, they are not simply the nightmarish stories that darker fey might be, but instead are truly horrifying reflections of the consequence of evil acts.

Primordials are also the stuff of stories, but more relating to ancient, ancient legends. As with Demons, they are something feared - perhaps more in the fashion of a natural disaster then a thinking enemy. Only those with inborn elemental ties might be involved with their worship or beliefs - most will shy away from them, if they know of them at all.

These are all beings of similar power, certainly, but the real difference is in their goals and in their connections to mortals. Devils, fey, and others may form pacts and bargains with specific individuals, but deities have a contract with mortal civilizations as a whole. They are the caretakers of mankind, as the primal spirits are the caretakers of the world. Mortal worship may or may not empower them, but it is clearly important to them in an instrinsic way. And the power flows both ways - through the blessings they share with civilization, there is the stability of clergy and priests to provide hope and healing.

Even the gods of other aspects are an important part of society, each helping mankind to understand those aspects of the world and their connection to it. They can make an offering to the goddess of the sea, in order to seek a calm sea voyage. They can pray to the god of the harvest when planting their crops. They can call upon the goddess of the dead to see their departed to a peaceful afterlife.

That's my take on it, at least. I might not necessarily run it as such in every campaign - I have a bad habit of thoroughly messing with cosmology in my games - but the above is how I'd view the default D&D environment. There are many powers out there, but deities are how mortal civilization compartamentalizes the world. Without them, it would be a wild and alien place, and mankind would be truly alone.

 

[SkidAce]

I have used variations of the immortals from the basic sets in nearly every campaign I have run over the years.

Basically, you are a god if you manage to "transcend existence" and become one with some facet or force of the universe.

So Pelor managed to blend his existence with "sunlight" and "strength". He tapped into that cosmic force if you will and is sustained by it, and he sustains it, etc .etc.

This makes him immortal (unless slain under special circumstances) lets him influence that domain or portfolio, and channel some power to clerics. He also gets power from worshippers of his temple and the domain in general.

Now there is a lot of basic cosmic "sun" power out there, so across the cosmos other "sun" gods may have arisen.

Demons managed to tie themselves into their plain of existence or realm, which sustains them like the cosmic power sustains Pelor. But since that is not a basic cosmic principle, they are not gods as such and get limited power out of their realm. Localized they are tough, and they are manageng to get some believers to transfer soul power into their realm, raising their power to some extent.

Could a demon or devil manage to tie itself to a cosmic principle and become a god? Possibly, maybe some have done so. My campaign has a god that started as a demon (Erishgigal the Destroyer), and this may be how Lolth got there. (she's still a demon in my world though)

Still overall, my gods are not cosmic forces themselves and tend to be lower level in power than standard DnD. Bahamut is one of the most powerful (he's a creator diety opposed to Tiamat since 1st ed) and I recently updated my pantheon with 4th ed stats. So Bahamut is 35? level, Tiamat is 36 (she's tougher, but he's better organized) and ALL the dieties go down from there. Some demigods (barely attached to a cosmic force and only one at that) come in around 25th level.

I set demigods around 25th because with the 4th ed epic destiny you are transitioning to being a demi god from 20th to 30th.

Just for grins I will post my deity "relative" chart later. Not that any one deity is that precisly aligned, but it helps me keep them in perspective.

Oh and by the way, one deity did manage to suck up nearly ALL of one particular cosmic force...making him extremley powerful. Tharizdun.

(I know, Tharizdun as the big bad is cliche now, but when you have had an ongoing living campaign for over 20 years...it wasn't cliche then)