What Makes a Deity?

[MrMyth]

I'm much more influenced by the 2e, classical Planescape view of things here, rather than the 'gods are big monsters, archfiends almost as big monsters' that you'll get from for instance, 4e. Totally don't care for that perspective. It cheapens the meaning of such beings to just slap on some extra hit dice and treat them as just a larger monster to fight. They deserve more than rolling initiative against IMO.

I will make note that, without having first read your post, my own post - and my own view on the gods - seems to be very much in-line with your own... with mine being driven entirely by the 4E view of things. So despite the mechanical representations put in place to allow for the meaningful resolution of conflict between gods and epic PCs, I'd say that the background, fluff and narrative of the game is perfectly compatible with your concept of the gods. I would agree that having them just as big monsters to fight is a pretty poor perspective - I'd disagree with that being the viewpoint offered by 4E.

 

[SkidAce]

This is my list of deities, they are spread across the cosmos. Lower levels are unique to the main campaign world (i.e. Imaginos) while players like Bahamat or Girru are multi-world spanning.

[sblock=Alfaysian Powers]
Tharizdun Outer Being 50
Ma'at The Lady of the Astral Sea Old One 40
Ptah The Seeker Old One 39
Tiamat Old One 37 Draconic
Bahamut Old One 36 Draconic
Shekinester The Naga of Fate Old One 36 Draconic
Ahriman The Serpent Elder God 35
Thoth The Watcher Elder God 35
Horus God of Light Elder God 35
Anu King of the Gods Greater God 35 Sunarian
Isis Goddess of Stars and Magic Greater God 35 Sunarian
Erishkigal The Destroyer Greater God 35 Demonic
Demogorgon Demon Prince 34 Abyssal
Mabelode The Faceless, King of Swords Greater God 34 Chaos
Nyarlathotep Outer Being 34
Orcus Demon Prince 33 Abyssal
Silvanus Lesser God 33 Keltian
Wee-Jas The Dark Lady Lesser God 33 Sunarian
Mielikki Lesser God 33 Keltian
Marduk God of Battle Lesser God 33 Sunarian
Anshar God of Darkness Lesser God 33 Sunarian
Xiombarg Queen of Swords Lesser God 33 Chaos
Anthraxus Daemon 32 Demonic
Dagon Demon Prince 32 Abyssal
Graz'zt Demon Prince 32 Abyssal
Pazuzu Demon Lord of the Air Demon Prince 32 Abyssal
Danaan Earth Mother Lesser God 32 Old Faith
Typhon Master of the Four Winds Lesser God 32 Old Faith
Ishtar Daughter of Lions Lesser God 32 Sunarian
Diancecht The Healer Lesser God 32 Keltian
Istus Lady of Fate Lesser God 32 A'lyn
Arioch Knight of Swords Lesser God 32 Chaos
Hephaestus World Forger Lesser God 32 Vaesir
Girru Bringer of Flame, Destructor of Evil Lesser God 32 Sunarian
Oghma God of Knowledge, The Binder Lesser God 32 Keltian
Kingu General of Chaos Demon Prince 31 Abyssal
Druaga Lesser God 31 Monastic
Mithras Lesser God 31 Romian
Freya Goddess of Poetry and Magic Lesser God 31 Vaesir
Solmen Lesser God 31 Monastic
Vecna The Whispered One, The Keeper of Secrets Lesser God 31 A'lyn
Minerva Lesser God 31 Romian
Trithereon Lesser God 30 Romian
Nergal God of Plague Lesser God 30 Sunarian
Pyaray Lord of the Depths Lesser God 30 Chaos
Aegir God of the Sea Lesser God 30 Vaesir
Forseti The Peacemaker Lesser God 30 Vaesir
Sif Goddess of Battle Lesser God 30 Vaesir
Mandala Lesser God 30 Monastic
Nuada God of the Silver Hand Lesser God 30 Keltian
Melora Lady of the Wilderness Lesser God 30 Old Faith
Loviatar Queen of Ice Lesser God 30 Keltian
Elder Elemental Eye Lesser God 30 Misc
Serenos The Huntmaster Lesser God 30 Old Faith
Xan-Yai Demigod 29 Monastic
Hastur Demigod 29 Outer Being
Uller God of Hunting Demigod 29 Vaesir
Cthulhu Demigod 28 Outer Being
Baphomet Demon Lord 28 Abyssal
Pelor The Shining One Demigod 27 Sunarian
Tsathoggua Demigod 27 Outer Being
Diana The Huntress Demigod 27 Romian
Namtar Herald of Evil Demon Lord 27 Sunarian
Vestia Demigod 26 Romian
Cthuga Demigod 26 Outer Being
Brigit Goddess of Fire Demigod 26 Keltian
Ygorl Slaad Lord of Entropy Demigod 26 Chaos
Pyremius Lady of Fire Demigod 26 A'lyn
Fraz Urblu Demon Lord 26 Abyssal
Celestian The Star Wanderer Demigod 25 A'lyn
Janus Demigod 25 Romian
Atroa Lady of Spring, East Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
Geshtai Lady of Winter, South Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
Kakatal Elemental Spirit Lord of Fire Demigod 25 Misc
Ssendam Slaad Lord of Insanity Demigod 25 Chaos
The Norns The Fates Demigod 25 Vaesir
Ithaqua The Wind Walker Demigod 25 Outer Being
Zuoken Demigod 25 Monastic
Grome Elemental Spirit Lord of Earth Demigod 25 Misc
Gordian Demigod 25 Monastic
Misha Elemental Spirit Lord of Air Demigod 25 Misc
Straasha Elemental Spirit Lord of Water Demigod 25 Misc
Nepthys Protector of the Dead Demigod 25 Sunarian
Wenta Lady of Autumn, West Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
Sotillion Lady of Summer, North Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
The Furies The Furies Quasi-deity 24 Romian
Goibhnie God of Blacksmiths Quasi-deity 24 Keltian
Chourst Sladd Lord of Randomness Quasi-deity 24 Chaos
Dahak Dragon Spirit of Death Quasi-deity 23 Sunarian
Kelanen The Swordlord Quasi-deity 23 Misc
Rennbuu Slaad Lord of Colors Quasi-deity 22 Chaos
Baal-Zag The Howler in Darkness Quasi-deity 21 Misc
Nhakhramat of the Emerald Flame Quasi-deity 20 Misc
Imaginos Lord of Illusions Quasi-deity 20 Misc
[/sblock]

And even though they have numbers and stats, they are not just for fighting and killing. Even though they could be.

More so for relative power / importance. Like a rank.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I like a god you can punch in the face.

Makes it feel More Epic to me. More Ragnarok, or The Illiad.

But I was weaned on the 2e side of things, so I do have a soft spot for the occasional setting where the gods are more concepts than characters (like Eberron).

 

[Voadam]

This is my list of deities, they are spread across the cosmos. Lower levels are unique to the main campaign world (i.e. Imaginos) while players like Bahamat or Girru are multi-world spanning.

[sblock=Alfaysian Powers]
Tharizdun Outer Being 50
Ma'at The Lady of the Astral Sea Old One 40
Ptah The Seeker Old One 39
Tiamat Old One 37 Draconic
Bahamut Old One 36 Draconic
Shekinester The Naga of Fate Old One 36 Draconic
Ahriman The Serpent Elder God 35
Thoth The Watcher Elder God 35
Horus God of Light Elder God 35
Anu King of the Gods Greater God 35 Sunarian
Isis Goddess of Stars and Magic Greater God 35 Sunarian
Erishkigal The Destroyer Greater God 35 Demonic
Demogorgon Demon Prince 34 Abyssal
Mabelode The Faceless, King of Swords Greater God 34 Chaos
Nyarlathotep Outer Being 34
Orcus Demon Prince 33 Abyssal
Silvanus Lesser God 33 Keltian
Wee-Jas The Dark Lady Lesser God 33 Sunarian
Mielikki Lesser God 33 Keltian
Marduk God of Battle Lesser God 33 Sunarian
Anshar God of Darkness Lesser God 33 Sunarian
Xiombarg Queen of Swords Lesser God 33 Chaos
Anthraxus Daemon 32 Demonic
Dagon Demon Prince 32 Abyssal
Graz'zt Demon Prince 32 Abyssal
Pazuzu Demon Lord of the Air Demon Prince 32 Abyssal
Danaan Earth Mother Lesser God 32 Old Faith
Typhon Master of the Four Winds Lesser God 32 Old Faith
Ishtar Daughter of Lions Lesser God 32 Sunarian
Diancecht The Healer Lesser God 32 Keltian
Istus Lady of Fate Lesser God 32 A'lyn
Arioch Knight of Swords Lesser God 32 Chaos
Hephaestus World Forger Lesser God 32 Vaesir
Girru Bringer of Flame, Destructor of Evil Lesser God 32 Sunarian
Oghma God of Knowledge, The Binder Lesser God 32 Keltian
Kingu General of Chaos Demon Prince 31 Abyssal
Druaga Lesser God 31 Monastic
Mithras Lesser God 31 Romian
Freya Goddess of Poetry and Magic Lesser God 31 Vaesir
Solmen Lesser God 31 Monastic
Vecna The Whispered One, The Keeper of Secrets Lesser God 31 A'lyn
Minerva Lesser God 31 Romian
Trithereon Lesser God 30 Romian
Nergal God of Plague Lesser God 30 Sunarian
Pyaray Lord of the Depths Lesser God 30 Chaos
Aegir God of the Sea Lesser God 30 Vaesir
Forseti The Peacemaker Lesser God 30 Vaesir
Sif Goddess of Battle Lesser God 30 Vaesir
Mandala Lesser God 30 Monastic
Nuada God of the Silver Hand Lesser God 30 Keltian
Melora Lady of the Wilderness Lesser God 30 Old Faith
Loviatar Queen of Ice Lesser God 30 Keltian
Elder Elemental Eye Lesser God 30 Misc
Serenos The Huntmaster Lesser God 30 Old Faith
Xan-Yai Demigod 29 Monastic
Hastur Demigod 29 Outer Being
Uller God of Hunting Demigod 29 Vaesir
Cthulhu Demigod 28 Outer Being
Baphomet Demon Lord 28 Abyssal
Pelor The Shining One Demigod 27 Sunarian
Tsathoggua Demigod 27 Outer Being
Diana The Huntress Demigod 27 Romian
Namtar Herald of Evil Demon Lord 27 Sunarian
Vestia Demigod 26 Romian
Cthuga Demigod 26 Outer Being
Brigit Goddess of Fire Demigod 26 Keltian
Ygorl Slaad Lord of Entropy Demigod 26 Chaos
Pyremius Lady of Fire Demigod 26 A'lyn
Fraz Urblu Demon Lord 26 Abyssal
Celestian The Star Wanderer Demigod 25 A'lyn
Janus Demigod 25 Romian
Atroa Lady of Spring, East Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
Geshtai Lady of Winter, South Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
Kakatal Elemental Spirit Lord of Fire Demigod 25 Misc
Ssendam Slaad Lord of Insanity Demigod 25 Chaos
The Norns The Fates Demigod 25 Vaesir
Ithaqua The Wind Walker Demigod 25 Outer Being
Zuoken Demigod 25 Monastic
Grome Elemental Spirit Lord of Earth Demigod 25 Misc
Gordian Demigod 25 Monastic
Misha Elemental Spirit Lord of Air Demigod 25 Misc
Straasha Elemental Spirit Lord of Water Demigod 25 Misc
Nepthys Protector of the Dead Demigod 25 Sunarian
Wenta Lady of Autumn, West Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
Sotillion Lady of Summer, North Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
The Furies The Furies Quasi-deity 24 Romian
Goibhnie God of Blacksmiths Quasi-deity 24 Keltian
Chourst Sladd Lord of Randomness Quasi-deity 24 Chaos
Dahak Dragon Spirit of Death Quasi-deity 23 Sunarian
Kelanen The Swordlord Quasi-deity 23 Misc
Rennbuu Slaad Lord of Colors Quasi-deity 22 Chaos
Baal-Zag The Howler in Darkness Quasi-deity 21 Misc
Nhakhramat of the Emerald Flame Quasi-deity 20 Misc
Imaginos Lord of Illusions Quasi-deity 20 Misc
[/sblock]

And even though they have numbers and stats, they are not just for fighting and killing. Even though they could be.

More so for relative power / importance. Like a rank.

Neat list.

Interesting how Finnish and Celtic became syncretized in Keltian and the Elric Courts of Chaos brought in the Slaad. Also the distinction between abyssal and demonic. A few oddities with Tritherion being Romian, Kingu being abyssal and not with Tiamat, and the Elder Elemental Eye being separate from Tharizdun in your big picture overview.

 

[SkidAce]

Neat list.

Interesting how Finnish and Celtic became syncretized in Keltian and the Elric Courts of Chaos brought in the Slaad. Also the distinction between abyssal and demonic. A few oddities with Tritherion being Romian, Kingu being abyssal and not with Tiamat, and the Elder Elemental Eye being separate from Tharizdun in your big picture overview.

Thanks.

Finnish and Celtic merged from when I had the original Dieties and Demigods and found I liked different parts of each mythos.

Courts of Chaos brought in slaad because I was reviewing ancient history and discovered I had two seperate "chaos wars/invasions". I decided to combine and make some back story...if you read the Elric stories Arioch's true from was quite disturbing...some relation to slaad?

Trithereon needed a place to hang out in my homebrew because of player created organizations and history, he had always had a place in the Varencian empire (rome analogue) so when I updated their pantheon during a switch from first to second edition, that was the best fit. You will notice a few other greyhawk powers hanging around for the same reason.

Kingu would belong with Tiamat in the babylonian sense, but she is more lawful in my world. So Kingu is abyssal and works for the queen of chaos from "the rod of seven parts" adventure. Or I might erase him. Didn't like Misha the wolf spider though.

Elder Elemental Eye is not actually seperate from Tharizdun, it a semi-autonomous manifestation. It gains enough power and it could become a conduit for the big T's awakening or something like that.

If I remember I can consolidate all the notes about the history of the cosmos (as the most recent modification to reduce rough edges with 4th ed) and let you see them.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

But what is the difference between gods and other 'godlike' beings - archfey, demon lords, primordials, Far Realm entities, primal spirits, etc - to the characters living inside the game world?

It seems to me that gods are the personification of metaphysical and abstract concepts. Bane is the god of war, Ioun is the god of knowledge, Avandra the god of freedom, and so on. In my opinion, gods of natural objects or processes aren't in charge of the day-to-day aspects of that object or process, just the idea of that object or process. For example, Pelor is the god of summer, but in my opinion that's more the metaphysical concept of summer than actual management of the season.

The gods are entities that can be battled with and even slain, but these entities are intimately linked to the concept they represent and vice versa. For example, when Tiamat dies at the end of Scales of War, murderous, violent greed is removed from the world (at least for a time).

I like to think that during the Dawn Age, the gods helped "solidify" the nascent world by splitting up the universe into conceptual "chunks" they called domains. These eternal concepts helped still the roiling chaos favored by the Primordials. But "eternal" shouldn't be taken to me that domains are static - they can be lost or created over time. It's just that the gods are connected to these chunks and derive a great deal of power from them.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I just thought about an interesting story hook - how about an offspring between a Primordial and a God, or a Primordial trying to become a god? The Primordials don't seem to have a power like Divine Discorporation, see

Spoiler

E3 - Prince of Undeath

, but yet they were able to fight and kill gods and were only barely defeated, many of them only imprisoned instead of destroyed. Could be a a hook for a nice epic adventure...

 

[Victim]

Right, but what exactly does that mean? How does the rural human peasant know that Pelor is the "god of the sun and summer" when the eladrin who protect his village (and demand tribute in return) only allow teaching on the Summer Queen and her court?

How about the violent dwarven raider and blacksmith who was born and raised in an isolated coastal town ruled by human priests of Baphomet? This guy has never even heard of Moradin and as far as he knows, the Horned King is the god of forges, mining and everything else in the world.

DnD has a pantheon of gods, each specializing in their own niche (and some overlap). I think it's a mistake to think of them as essentially monotheistic religions competing with each other. It should probably be expected that people, even if they primarily pray to one god, still acknowledge the other dieties and will say prayers or invoke them in curses at appropriate times.

 

[Snoweel]

DnD has a pantheon of gods, each specializing in their own niche (and some overlap). I think it's a mistake to think of them as essentially monotheistic religions competing with each other.

I certainly do think of them as one pantheon where they all have some fondness for each other, even the evil ones - like some kind of family tie or something.

But I see archfey and demon lords and just about everybody else as directly competing with the gods. Most of them at least.

As for individual temples though, I think the politics between them (between temples of different gods, or even between temples of the same god) are entirely dependent on the personalities of the individuals associated with them - like any organisation consisting of powerful people (priests and other representatives of the gods, whether politically or magically powerful).

I certainly see the case where the paladin of Erathis riding into town with his buddies is viewed with suspicion by the head of the local Erathis temple. Especially if he makes it known he's on good terms with the temple of Erathis in the town across the bay (who happen to have stolen an important religious text).

Hell, the (mid-heroic tier) head priest might order the (low-paragon tier) paladin kicked out for daring to suggest that Erathis wouldn't like the way he runs the temple.

It should probably be expected that people, even if they primarily pray to one god, still acknowledge the other dieties and will say prayers or invoke them in curses at appropriate times.

Agreed.

But in a points-of-light setting it's entirely possible that in any one of the points-of-light (whether that be a single settlement or an isolated valley containing two towns and twenty villages with no outside contact) that some knowledge of one or more of the gods has been lost.

In my example of the isolated town run by the cult of Baphomet, the cultists might have taken over several generations ago. Forcible conversion back then has led to the entire population of the town being born knowing no god but Baphomet.

 

[Dausuul]

I've run a number of different cosmologies over the years. Most often, though, the difference is very simple:

Gods are the ones it is generally not possible to interact with.

You see, I usually have a problem with the the standard take D&D has with gods - to me, they come off rather like the aspects of Elminster most folks take the greatest offense to, but worse. They are the biggest, baddest NPCs, and it is darned difficult to reasonably explain why they don't just do it all themselves.

So, to vastly simplify things, I generally work with gods who only work through mortal hands (you know, like all those clerics running around). They *cannot* manifest or act directly in the world, so far as anyone knows. If I have a "world ending" plot, it typically revolves around some god trying to break that rule, and the PCs having to stop them.

Yup, this is how I tend to do things. Gods exist off in a distant place and their ability to intervene directly in mortal affairs, or even communicate with mortals, is extremely limited. If you want to kill them, it may or may not be possible, but if it is possible, you have to go to their plane of existence to do it... which ain't easy.

(The standard D&D take on gods works best if you're playing a swords-and-sorcery game focused on the PCs' personal exploits and goals, rather than an epic, world-changing quest.)