What Makes a Deity?

[Desdichado]

DnD has a pantheon of gods, each specializing in their own niche (and some overlap). I think it's a mistake to think of them as essentially monotheistic religions competing with each other. It should probably be expected that people, even if they primarily pray to one god, still acknowledge the other dieties and will say prayers or invoke them in curses at appropriate times.

I do that, but that's hardly a given of D&D, or indicative of how most published campaign settings seem to operate. :shrug:

An interesting idea would be to borrow a concept from the Eddas. There, you've got the Vanir and the Æsir, who are essentially rival pantheons. They went to war in the Eddas, but then later made peace and embarked on a foreign exchange program where some of the Æsir became members of the Vanir pantheon and vice versa. Frey or Freyr and his sister Freya were Vanir gods who later became worshipped as the Æsir were, but they were clearly associated with the Vanir, who were associated with Alfheim and the elves.

Applying this to the admittedly murky 4e cosmological idea, "gods" becomes maybe not so much a qualitative assessment of their qualities, but more an association that binds them together. The "team" that they're on, so to speak. There isn't a qualitative difference between archfiends, primordials, lords of the fey, or other supernaturally butt-kicking outsiders in general. What makes a god a god is his alignment with the "team" of gods, and nothing else.

Some of the other groups could almost be considered rival pantheons, and you've got echoes of the Vanir/Æsir differences again. And if alliances between pantheons occur, then you could even have odd things occuring. Heck, maybe that's why Asmodeus is considered a god and part of the pantheon; it was part of a peace settlement between the gods and the archdevils.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I've run a number of different cosmologies over the years. Most often, though, the difference is very simple:

Gods are the ones it is generally not possible to interact with.

You see, I usually have a problem with the the standard take D&D has with gods -

That's a take that predates D&D. It's the take that a lot of mythologies take - the gods run around in the world, but happen to be much tougher and possessed of greater powers than ordinary people.

They seem a lot like high-level D&D PCs.

They don't usually directly interfere because other gods would notice and jump in to oppose them - read the Iliad, for example. The paradigm of distant, remote gods is workable, but I think it's more fun to make them more like the Greek or Norse gods. D&D of any edition has always seemed closer to the Marvel Comics universe than the real world, anyway.

 

[Barastrondo]

It occurs to me that a large part of my opinion of how to handle deities in D&D comes from one simple rule: I refuse to create a player character that worships someone else's old player character, or even a god that feels like someone else's old player character. Just doesn't feel right to have a holy text of "Let Me Tell You About My Character."

So yeah, I like them ineffable or alien or immensities with a myriad of masks or things like that.

 

[Raven Crowking]

In 1e, gods were unique in that they could grant clerics spells. That got turfed in 2e, but it is still a useful marker.

Another way you might think of it is through a feudal analogy.

The local fey nature spirit might be analagous to a knight, or a baron, but the gods are kings and queens. Fealty runs up the chain until you hit the big dogs of the supernatural world.

There is also nothing wrong with simply saying "what difference exists is vague, and is not known to mortals" so that your local fey lords can really be some form of minor deities. 3e supported this option very well, and it is an option that will really help certain creature types (fey, outsiders, maybe even some aberations) seem truly otherworldly.

Best of luck with deciding what's right for you!


RC

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

A small, plastic card with a bad picture of the entity in question and information on the front that basically says "This is a god".





To explain it more seriously I got the idea after a superhero game where I worked into the mythology aspect of the setting that the Chinese bureaucratic underworld had been put in control of policing everything "mythology". They were in charge of all the bits of paper that said what everyone was in charge of and how they were allowed to go about it. And if you didn't fill out your paperwork they will make your life a bad pun.

This kind of cosmology appeals to me because it means you can have your gods and explain their inconsistancies too: they have byzantine rules that they have to navigate every time they want to do anything, and as a result they resort to measures that seem to mortals very screwy. Also it avoids the need to have a separate category of being: anyone can be a "god", it's a job or a hobby rather than a creature type.

 

[Votan]

That's a take that predates D&D. It's the take that a lot of mythologies take - the gods run around in the world, but happen to be much tougher and possessed of greater powers than ordinary people.

They seem a lot like high-level D&D PCs.

They don't usually directly interfere because other gods would notice and jump in to oppose them - read the Iliad, for example. The paradigm of distant, remote gods is workable, but I think it's more fun to make them more like the Greek or Norse gods. D&D of any edition has always seemed closer to the Marvel Comics universe than the real world, anyway.

I like the Iliad as an example. I tend to think that pantheons and gods with human characteristics make this type of deity more sensible. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, many current gods were once Mortal beings and we have seen gods die (duels, assassination by mortals, losing a board game with Lloth) -- given the rate at which this happens making them into eternal principles seems like a bad idea.

Heck, with the current board game between Corellon and Lloth, one of them is about to exit as well . . .

 

[Aeolius]

I have been giving some thought to apotheosis; the elevation of a person, in this case a recurring NPC, to the ranks of godhood.

“Clerics who worship demon lords cast spells in the same way as other clerics do, but their Abyssal patrons do not directly grant them spells. Rather, the demon lord serves as a focus through which the cleric can access divine energy - his spells are in fact drawn from the chaos and evil of the Abyss itself.” (FC1, pg. 82)

One can thus conclude that a minor deity/quasi-deity might not be entirely divine but rather act as a Living Catalyst for the energies of an otherworldly plane. FC1 also adds Feats such as Abyss-Bound Soul and Evil Brand, which further bind a mortal to a Living Catalyst.

Fiend Folio offers a variety of fiend-focused prestige classes, such as the Fiend of Blasphemy, wherein a fiend can grant abilities to its “worshippers”. The Fiend of Blasphemy can also grant spells, as it can “channel spellcasting ability from it’s own fiendish master to mortals with levels in the cleric class”.

One could also look to Deities & Demigods, giving a Living Catalyst a divine rank of 0 (quasi-deity) to 5 (demigod), possibly ascribing their ascension to an Imparted Divine Power. Perhaps the Living Catalyst is in effect an Avatar (Salient Divine Ability) of a more powerful force.

This results in a fledgling deity who, while removed from recurring use as an NPC, still interacts on a close level with their “worshippers”. The neo-deity can grant spells and knows the goings-on of their worshippers, yet they are removed from the playing field to become a member of the “big picture”.

“Witches gain new spells by performing ritual sacrifice and prayer to deities usually demon princes, archdevils, or the current oinodaemon. if the deity is pleased, it sends a servant being to teach the witch a new spell appropriate to her level and ability... Witches who join a High Secret Order are bound to even greater servitude to their deities than before and take on additional responsibilities to carry out their deities’ wills.” (The Witch, Revised and expanded NPC class - DRAGON #114)

That is the angle from which I am choosing to approach apotheosis.

 

[oni no won]

If we are talking in D&D terms, they are the physical manifestation of their respective aspects. Furthermore, unlike other powerful beings, they thrive on souls and for whatever reason, they have become dependent on it. Because of this they have a need for mortals to represent them on the material plane.

 

[howandwhy99]

Obviously there is canon (feel free to share; I know some of you are subject matter experts on D&D canon and I'd love to know if there's an official line on this) but I'm mostly interested in your own take on these beings. How does it all work in your setting?

Yeah, it's definitely going to be different in every game played in. My own understanding is deities are near omniscient so their codified knowledge base in the rules is total absent other gods and their domains. Each one knows everything occurring on the material plane and on the inner planes. The Outer planes are those deities' domains. I think there is D&D canon for this, generally that all deities of a domain are omniscient about it as well, but it's a matter of DM preference as you pointed out.

Greater and Lesser deities, some folks use Intermediate deities (some even a point system like 1-15), are similar to the Outer Planar omniscience rule. Essentially, Lesser deities only having mortal power within any Outer Plane, but omnipotence off beyond them.

Omnipotence, the power to change any aspect of a place, off-plane tends to be restricted too. In general, it is limited to each deity's particular domain. So a deity of nature is near omnipotent in regards to the prime material plane, while other gods may have total control only over metal or time or war or whatever is defined within the game rules.

Hero-deities and Quasi-deities share in the third divine trait, immortality, but are far more limited in the other two. Hero-deities are like Lesser deities on an Outer Plane, but without any omniscience or omnipotence on or beyond it. Quasi-deities are like Greater deities, but only omniscient and omnipotent when upon their own private demi-plane (a state some mortals like archwizards manage). Whether either is immortal off of these planes is more varied by DM IME.

Many use Greyhawk's nonintervention status quo condition between all the deities, sometimes using a prime material Mother Nature as the owner of prime material. (To invade it would be to invade another deity's planar domain). That other gods can still be called upon within it only means their domains overlap, Outer Planes not necessarily being dimensional.

 

[S'mon]

This is my list of deities, they are spread across the cosmos. Lower levels are unique to the main campaign world (i.e. Imaginos) while players like Bahamat or Girru are multi-world spanning.

[sblock=Alfaysian Powers]
Tharizdun Outer Being 50
Ma'at The Lady of the Astral Sea Old One 40
Ptah The Seeker Old One 39
Tiamat Old One 37 Draconic
Bahamut Old One 36 Draconic
Shekinester The Naga of Fate Old One 36 Draconic
Ahriman The Serpent Elder God 35
Thoth The Watcher Elder God 35
Horus God of Light Elder God 35
Anu King of the Gods Greater God 35 Sunarian
Isis Goddess of Stars and Magic Greater God 35 Sunarian
Erishkigal The Destroyer Greater God 35 Demonic
Demogorgon Demon Prince 34 Abyssal
Mabelode The Faceless, King of Swords Greater God 34 Chaos
Nyarlathotep Outer Being 34
Orcus Demon Prince 33 Abyssal
Silvanus Lesser God 33 Keltian
Wee-Jas The Dark Lady Lesser God 33 Sunarian
Mielikki Lesser God 33 Keltian
Marduk God of Battle Lesser God 33 Sunarian
Anshar God of Darkness Lesser God 33 Sunarian
Xiombarg Queen of Swords Lesser God 33 Chaos
Anthraxus Daemon 32 Demonic
Dagon Demon Prince 32 Abyssal
Graz'zt Demon Prince 32 Abyssal
Pazuzu Demon Lord of the Air Demon Prince 32 Abyssal
Danaan Earth Mother Lesser God 32 Old Faith
Typhon Master of the Four Winds Lesser God 32 Old Faith
Ishtar Daughter of Lions Lesser God 32 Sunarian
Diancecht The Healer Lesser God 32 Keltian
Istus Lady of Fate Lesser God 32 A'lyn
Arioch Knight of Swords Lesser God 32 Chaos
Hephaestus World Forger Lesser God 32 Vaesir
Girru Bringer of Flame, Destructor of Evil Lesser God 32 Sunarian
Oghma God of Knowledge, The Binder Lesser God 32 Keltian
Kingu General of Chaos Demon Prince 31 Abyssal
Druaga Lesser God 31 Monastic
Mithras Lesser God 31 Romian
Freya Goddess of Poetry and Magic Lesser God 31 Vaesir
Solmen Lesser God 31 Monastic
Vecna The Whispered One, The Keeper of Secrets Lesser God 31 A'lyn
Minerva Lesser God 31 Romian
Trithereon Lesser God 30 Romian
Nergal God of Plague Lesser God 30 Sunarian
Pyaray Lord of the Depths Lesser God 30 Chaos
Aegir God of the Sea Lesser God 30 Vaesir
Forseti The Peacemaker Lesser God 30 Vaesir
Sif Goddess of Battle Lesser God 30 Vaesir
Mandala Lesser God 30 Monastic
Nuada God of the Silver Hand Lesser God 30 Keltian
Melora Lady of the Wilderness Lesser God 30 Old Faith
Loviatar Queen of Ice Lesser God 30 Keltian
Elder Elemental Eye Lesser God 30 Misc
Serenos The Huntmaster Lesser God 30 Old Faith
Xan-Yai Demigod 29 Monastic
Hastur Demigod 29 Outer Being
Uller God of Hunting Demigod 29 Vaesir
Cthulhu Demigod 28 Outer Being
Baphomet Demon Lord 28 Abyssal
Pelor The Shining One Demigod 27 Sunarian
Tsathoggua Demigod 27 Outer Being
Diana The Huntress Demigod 27 Romian
Namtar Herald of Evil Demon Lord 27 Sunarian
Vestia Demigod 26 Romian
Cthuga Demigod 26 Outer Being
Brigit Goddess of Fire Demigod 26 Keltian
Ygorl Slaad Lord of Entropy Demigod 26 Chaos
Pyremius Lady of Fire Demigod 26 A'lyn
Fraz Urblu Demon Lord 26 Abyssal
Celestian The Star Wanderer Demigod 25 A'lyn
Janus Demigod 25 Romian
Atroa Lady of Spring, East Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
Geshtai Lady of Winter, South Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
Kakatal Elemental Spirit Lord of Fire Demigod 25 Misc
Ssendam Slaad Lord of Insanity Demigod 25 Chaos
The Norns The Fates Demigod 25 Vaesir
Ithaqua The Wind Walker Demigod 25 Outer Being
Zuoken Demigod 25 Monastic
Grome Elemental Spirit Lord of Earth Demigod 25 Misc
Gordian Demigod 25 Monastic
Misha Elemental Spirit Lord of Air Demigod 25 Misc
Straasha Elemental Spirit Lord of Water Demigod 25 Misc
Nepthys Protector of the Dead Demigod 25 Sunarian
Wenta Lady of Autumn, West Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
Sotillion Lady of Summer, North Wind Demigod 25 Old Faith
The Furies The Furies Quasi-deity 24 Romian
Goibhnie God of Blacksmiths Quasi-deity 24 Keltian
Chourst Sladd Lord of Randomness Quasi-deity 24 Chaos
Dahak Dragon Spirit of Death Quasi-deity 23 Sunarian
Kelanen The Swordlord Quasi-deity 23 Misc
Rennbuu Slaad Lord of Colors Quasi-deity 22 Chaos
Baal-Zag The Howler in Darkness Quasi-deity 21 Misc
Nhakhramat of the Emerald Flame Quasi-deity 20 Misc
Imaginos Lord of Illusions Quasi-deity 20 Misc
[/sblock]

And even though they have numbers and stats, they are not just for fighting and killing. Even though they could be.

More so for relative power / importance. Like a rank.

Wow, are you copying my campaign?! Major deities IMC include Girru and the Sword Rulers (Arioch Xiombarg Mabelode). Tharizdun was destroyed awhile back, though. Various other deities and demon lords have been destroyed and their portfolios gradually absorbed by other entities, eg Nergal absorbed Orcus' Undeath portfolio and is now often called Nergal-Orcus; while Xiombarg recently absorbed Lolth's portfolio - but to the Drow she's simply 'Lolth' or 'Lolth Returned'. Girru became a major deity following the destruction of Anu and Marduk, likewise.