What Makes a Hero?

[Wombat]

I think we are dealing with multiple definitions of "The Hero" in this thread.

For example, the Campbellian Hero (gotta love Hero With A Thousand Faces!) is a specific folkloric model, a cross-cultural digest form describing heroes from literature and religions worldwide in the most generic, yet important, terms, starting from "unusual birth" and/or "prophecy" to "death" (or equivalent), with or without inspired followers after the fact. As Campbell points out, Maui, Herakles, Moses and King Arthur do not have exactly the same story, but there are intriguingly similar patterns that bind them together and thus we can use the rubric "Hero" to describe them all.

On the other hand we can site "heroes" in our own lives who went through none of these standard conventions (or possibly only through a couple of them), and yet they inspire us in some very important, very much fundamental manner. A person who kills many people in a war may be a hero; so too may be someone who refuses to go to war. As we have seen, sometimes all that is required to become a hero is the refusal to give up a bus seat, if it is the right place and time. These individuals do not fulfill the Hero's Journey, but they inspire others to follow a similar path of action later.

So there is the Folkloric Hero and the Ordinary Hero. Both can inspire rpg games, most certainly. Matter of taste for games, of course, and while I would aspire to running a game with the full Hero's Journey, I rarely find the players that are fully willing to take that trip. It's a tough one and, as Campbell points out, many of the Heroes are only appreciated as such after their deaths, being shunned by their own communities during their lifetimes.

 

[Henry]

you must also have someone witness the act and relate the tale in their unadultered view.

Doesn't make them any less a hero - just unsung, as you noted.

you can't go bragging about dunking over Shaq on a back alley court and expect everyone to take your word for it.

Not a hero. Just a good b-ball player.

My dad, for instance, was not (as far as I know) a hero by any stretch, but he was a role-model to look up to. You can still be a model for some ideal, but not be a hero. You can also be a hero, and not a role-model. A guy who drinks heavily and cheats on his wife every weekend, yet goes out and saves people from burning buildings can be a sort of hero (though I'd feel uncomfortable with giving him that title), but a sucky role-model.

my grandfather was my hero. but that is seen in the eyes of someone who witnessed his deeds or heard about them from his peers. to others he was just like anybody else... an unsung hero

So how cool was grandfather?

 

[Sir Elton]

Religion isn't appropriate on these boards. As important as they are to you, Sir Elton, this isn't the place to share your religious experiences.

Well, Suppose I wanted to talk about Greek Myth. Religion. Suppose I wanted to talk about the Ramayana. Religion. Suppose I wanted to talk about Arthurian Myth, Religion again! Maybe I want to talk about Anasi. Again, Religion crops up.

PirateCat, isn't it funny that when you talk about Myth, you are talking about somebody's Religion? Think on that.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Well, Suppose I wanted to talk about Greek Myth. Religion. Suppose I wanted to talk about the Ramayana. Religion. Suppose I wanted to talk about Arthurian Myth, Religion again! Maybe I want to talk about Anasi. Again, Religion crops up.

PirateCat, isn't it funny that when you talk about Myth, you are talking about somebody's Religion? Think on that.

Easy now. I believe what P-cat was saying is that discussing religion/mythology is fine in context of the game, but discussion of personal religious experiences are not appropriate for these boards as they may make some people uncomfortable reading them.

Sorry P-cat don't mean to speak for you, but I don't want things to get heated and off track.

As for a hero, my take goes along the line of personal risk or sacrifice in order to do something that people see as worthy or good. Of course one persons hero may be another's villian, depending which side you are looking from...

 

[Sir Elton]

Easy now. I believe what P-cat was saying is that discussing religion/mythology is fine in context of the game, but discussion of personal religious experiences are not appropriate for these boards as they may make some people uncomfortable reading them.

Sorry P-cat don't mean to speak for you, but I don't want things to get heated and off track.

No, Pirate Cat took my post out of context.

 

[Death_Jester]

OK guys we had a wonderful little discussion befor the stuff started flying. Lets get back on topic now.

I haven't read Campbell unless you count Bruce Campell's "if chins could kill".
But I was thinking of the specific Dungeons and Dragons universe where alignments are a factor in the day to day lives of the people living them.

I mean if I cast protection from evil the evil person suffers the penlities for that. Even though heroic and good may not have anything to do with each other the are offten found in the same individuals. If that is the case then can we say that a hero it soley a good person but not all good people are heroes?

 

[lupus]

Being a hero is as much about why you do something as it is about what you do. If you do something for 'fame and riches', then that, for me, makes the whole 'hero' thing moot. If you do something because you're a semi-sociopathic man who'd go insane if he didn't risk his life (James Bond, at least the movie version), then you're not really a capital-H Hero.

I like the scene in Babylon 5.

"You would trade your life for his? I thought you had destiny? Is that destiny not worth one life?"
"I fall, another will take my place, and another, and another."
"But... your great cause!"
"THIS is my cause! Life! One life, or a billion, it's all the same!"
"Then you make the sacrifice willingly. No fame, no armies or banners or cities to celebrate your name; you will die alone and unremarked... and forgotten."

I think that's the essence of heroism. At least, the model of heroism that I like best.

(Edit: watching the ep to get the quote right. Just ran across this next one

"No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for many, not for glory, not for fame - for one person, in the dark, where no-one will ever know or see."

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Being a hero is as much about why you do something as it is about what you do. If you do something for 'fame and riches', then that, for me, makes the whole 'hero' thing moot. If you do something because you're a semi-sociopathic man who'd go insane if he didn't risk his life (James Bond, at least the movie version), then you're not really a capital-H Hero.

I like the scene in Babylon 5.

"You would trade your life for his? I thought you had destiny? Is that destiny not worth one life?"
"I fall, another will take my place, and another, and another."
"But... your great cause!"
"THIS is my cause! Life! One life, or a billion, it's all the same!"
"Then you make the sacrifice willingly. No fame, no armies or banners or cities to celebrate your name; you will die alone and unremarked... and forgotten."

I think that's the essence of heroism. At least, the model of heroism that I like best.

(Edit: watching the ep to get the quote right. Just ran across this next one

"No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for many, not for glory, not for fame - for one person, in the dark, where no-one will ever know or see."

Excellent references! Yes I agree that Captain Sheridan may well be the epitome of a hero.

As for Death Jester, I would suggest that even in the D&D paradigm, an evil character or being can be a hero, but probably not a Hero. A vigilante can be a hero by freeing the town of evil people, the people of fear, but he will likely never become a capital H Hero on the order of King Arthur, Aragorn.

 

[xbrokenxswordx]

To me more than anything, a hero is one who places the needs of others above their own needs. And this relates more to the intent of the person/character than their success.

If a character threw themself between a child and a charging orc, I'd call them a hero...no matter what happened to that character next.

If a character took all they got from the latest dungeon crawl and used it support the needy in the community, I'd call them a hero.

 

[S'mon]

There are always exceptions (it's kind of hard for me to call, say, Hitler's bodyguards "heroic")

Standing around bored in the Wolf's Lair isn't particularly heroic, but I've read "Assault Battalion Wotan" by Leo Kessler where the protagonists are members of the Adolf Hitler Bodyguard (Leibstandarte) Division of the SS, and they are certainly presented as 'heroic' in terms of bravery, ingenuity, fortitude, willingness to die for a cause beyond themselves, etc. The main character is even softened a little by showing disdain for the likes of the Totenkopf SS (the death camp guards). Of course the characters are still more Lawful Evil than Lawful Good, in D&D terms, but I think you can be heroic while on the 'wrong' side. In fact IRL heroes can fight each other while representing two opposed positions both of which have considerable merit, and still be just as heroic as if it were totally Good vs Evil.