What NON-OBVIOUS stuff would you like to see in Revised?

[Xarlen]

I agree with nearly all Fuin's changes.

Here's something I'd like to see, then. FRCS does this with Orders.

A paladin or Monk should be allowed to multi-class, but only with certain classes, designated by their orders. This would allow the PC to have a Theme, as well as RP potential.

Also, here's potential for restricting multi-classing with paladin and monk: The other class that they multi-class into can have no more levels then Half their paladin or monk classes. This would stop people from going 1 monk/1 ranger/4 paladin.

I'd like to see a Paladin monk, for that matter. Holy Martial Artist.

 

[Numion]

• Standing up from prone should take a full round (no more stand up and attack), unless you get some kind of feat, and cost an AoO.

6 seconds to get up? If your life depended on it?

 

[Zaruthustran]

I don't know how you run your games, but Necromancers, and Undead, even Skeletons, should be something to atleast be slightly worried about. Unless you prefer your PCs to yawn at the sight of them.

Sounds like you're arguing this point because you play a Necromancer and want that character to be more powerful. As oppossed to arguing the point because you think it will make the game better for everyone.

Skeletons are weak. They just are. That's fine, and Necromancers are still scary, because UNDEAD SCALE UP. The MM has plenty of high-powered undead.

To go with your examples:
No, a skeleltal minotaur would not gore. It's mindless. It doesn't know it has horns!
No, an umber hulk zombie would not hit harder. Its muscle tissue is dead and so the size of the muscles are irrelavent; only weak supernatural forces power its swings.

Weak mindless undead are essentially constructs.

Now, what I would think is cool (and this'd serve your purpose) is the creation of a new undead type that is basically a skeleton or zombie inhabited by an intelligent spirit. These things would be tough, would not be mindless, and would prevent PCs from yawning at the sight of them.

-z

 

[Greybar]

from fuindordm:

1a) An option for a scholar-cleric rather than a war cleric (light armor only, more skill points?)

Without harping to long on this...

This exactly highlights why I think the cleric needs to be weakened. Trying to make sure a scholar-cleric is painful, since balancing the armor and BAB with skills/spells only points out how much more powerful it is than the wizard/sorcerer. I'd been looking at this for a character in my game who is distinctly not a combat-minded character but is a cleric.

John

 

[mmadsen]

A fighter is a fighter, not an adventurer.

That's an odd position to hold, given that most historical "adventurers" would be "fighters" of some kind -- conquistadors, legionaries, mercenaries, etc.

 

[Xarlen]

Sounds like you're arguing this point because you play a Necromancer and want that character to be more powerful. As oppossed to arguing the point because you think it will make the game better for everyone.

Uh, no. I'm the DM. I want to make Necromancers more dangerous for PCs instead of 'WHEE skeletons, we won't break a sweat now'. I want them to Flinch when they see some big, nasty shell of something that once was an umber hulk or a dragon, and be afraid for the Beating they're about to get taken down, instead of computing that it's a large or huge, so it follows these stats (a real breeze).

It would make gathering more rare or powerful creatures for the purposes of Undead more worthwhile. 'Why go hunt for a frost giant when you can go find a ogre and use it? They hit just as hard'. Well... Because it's a freaking Frost Giant. It SHOULD do more damage.

Now, what I would think is cool (and this'd serve your purpose) is the creation of a new undead type that is basically a skeleton or zombie inhabited by an intelligent spirit. These things would be tough, would not be mindless, and would prevent PCs from yawning at the sight of them.

Those are in the BoVD. I plan on the recurring villain to be an intelligent skeleton, a Fighter/rogue, whom through an accident the party turned him into the intelligent skeleton.

 

[Greatwyrm]

I'll chime in with my 2cp on Sorcerors. Why they don't have Diplomacy and Intimidate, I don't understand.

After playing a Druid, I think the Summon Nature's Ally lists are a little weak. In most cases, a Wiz/Sor/Clr can get a templated version of the same creature with the same level spell. Why should they get a better animal than a druid with the same level spell?

Better/easier/more useful counterspelling. The rules, as they are, might as well not even be in the book.

More fun stuff to do with Alchemy.

 

[haiiro]

For what it's worth, here's my little laundry list of non-obvious tweaks. Some have already been mentioned, but I think they bear repetition -- just in case this thread has an impact at WotC. In no particular order:

1) Bring the sorcerer more in line with Monte Cook's BoEM2 model: give her more CHA-based class skills, perhaps remove Knowledge (Arcana); give her a separate spell list geared towards casting the same spells over and over; remove the need for non-costly material components; grant 4 skill points/level, not 2; up the HD to a d6.

2) Add PrC, monster and feat construction guidelines to the DMG -- along the lines of the early 3e Dragon articles.

3) Either more core races in the PHB or improved guidelines for using monsters as PC races in the DMG -- or both. If core races are being added, I'd love to see one with a CHA bonus.

4) Better indexes. WotC's indexes are pretty miserable overall, IMO (when they're included at all).

5) I prefer the "one monster per page" approach for monster books, and would love to see this in the MM. This might mean fewer monsters, but it would also mean more ecology/society/etc. info for each entry -- something I really miss.

6) Change the current partial/standard/move-equivalent/free/etc. action system to something slightly more streamlined and easier to explain. (This one might count as obvious.)

I'm sure I'll think of more as soon as I post this.

There's also plenty I wouldn't change: great art, pictures of all of the equipment, captions for the illustrations, binding quality, tome covers, spells in alphabetical order, etc.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Wishlist

Changes:

1. Two weapon fighting needs to be simplified. It should take one feat, not two. But the feat requirement should be "Dex 15, BAB +1." The benefit should be that your two-weapon attacks are -2/-2. Fighting with two weps is not difficult, and two feats is quite a lot to ask from any class other than Fighter.

3. The feat "Ambidexterity" should be true Ambidexterity, meaning you get full Strength bonus for the "off-hand" weapon. Since, you know, if you're truly Ambidextrous YOU DO NOT HAVE AN OFF-HAND.

4. Elves should be -2 Str, +2 Dex +2 Cha. The -2 Con doesn't make sense--Elves are supposedly the longest-lived creatures! Also, they're supposed to be graceful and awe-inspiring--where's the Charisma bonus? If the Con penalty must stay, they should at least get bonuses to resisting disease (functionally identical to the Dwarf bonus to resisting magic).

5. Druids should get more wilderness spells, and get them earlier than Clerics and Sor/Wizards. And they should also get the physical buff spells. And Flame Blade should lose the "wielded like a scimitar" descriptor (which penalizes Small druids, among other problems). And the restricted weapon mix should be clarified (what, my Druid loses his powers if he throws a rock--or a punch?)

6. Grappling needs to be simplified.

7. Rules for kneeling/crouching.

8. The elf "Trance" thing needs to be clarified. If an elf never needs sleep, does that mean he can keep watch all night? Does an elf in "Trance" get to make Spot/Listen checks? Is there a penalty?

9. The ranger should drop Ambi/TWF and gain Endurance. They should also get wilderness class abilities (duh). Rangers are not simply Fighters who like the woods. Take a clue from real-life Rangers and explorers, and give them class abilities like:

• Gear Weight Reduction The ability to reduce weight of carried gear by X%, for purposes of calculating encumberance. Can apply this ability to other party members' gear.
• Guide The ability to reduce or increase (player's choice) the chance of random wilderness encounters.
• Seasoned Tracker The ability to spot tracks by passing within 5' of them, as an Elf is able to spot secret doors or a Dwarf is able to spot unusual stonework.
• Grit An ability that mechanically represents a Ranger's focus and tenacity, functionally similar to Rage except that it is for survival situations. Activating Grit gives +2 to all saves and to any one skill check, but -2 to Spot and Listen
• Be Prepared When the players come to an obstacle like a gorge or dark cave, thus discovering that they need a torch or rope or some other mundane thing, and no one has such a thing on their character sheet, the Ranger gets X% chance of having it.
• Camouflage Hide bonus = Ranger Level when in wilderness. Takes 10 full-round actions to apply, lasts 1 day.
• Expedition Leader Can provide an overland movement bonus to entire party, for purposes of calculating total movement over a period of days.

10. Get rid of the horrible, horrible, horrible, spiky strappy art. Especially the weapon and armor art.

-z

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Re: Wishlist

Changes:

1. Two weapon fighting needs to be simplified. It should take one feat, not two. But the feat requirement should be "Dex 15, BAB +1." The benefit should be that your two-weapon attacks are -2/-2. Fighting with two weps is not difficult, and two feats is quite a lot to ask from any class other than Fighter.

3. The feat "Ambidexterity" should be true Ambidexterity, meaning you get full Strength bonus for the "off-hand" weapon. Since, you know, if you're truly Ambidextrous YOU DO NOT HAVE AN OFF-HAND.

Agreed. For balance, mirror Ambidexterity off of Two-Handed Power Strike-- requiring Two-Weapon Fighting and a certain BAB. (I don't actually have the book with Power Strike, but it sounds about right)

4. Elves should be -2 Str, +2 Dex +2 Cha. The -2 Con doesn't make sense--Elves are supposedly the longest-lived creatures! Also, they're supposed to be graceful and awe-inspiring--where's the Charisma bonus? If the Con penalty must stay, they should at least get bonuses to resisting disease (functionally identical to the Dwarf bonus to resisting magic).

Eh. Long-lived doesn't mean they can't be frail and a little underdeveloped. Give them the CON penalty but a bonus to saving throw against disease, and add +2 INT.

9. The ranger should drop Ambi/TWF and gain Endurance. They should also get wilderness class abilities (duh). Rangers are not simply Fighters who like the woods. Take a clue from real-life Rangers and explorers, and give them class abilities like:

• Gear Weight Reduction The ability to reduce weight of carried gear by X%, for purposes of calculating encumberance. Can apply this ability to other party members' gear.
• Guide The ability to reduce or increase (player's choice) the chance of random wilderness encounters.
• Seasoned Tracker The ability to spot tracks by passing within 5' of them, as an Elf is able to spot secret doors or a Dwarf is able to spot unusual stonework.
• Grit An ability that mechanically represents a Ranger's focus and tenacity, functionally similar to Rage except that it is for survival situations. Activating Grit gives +2 to all saves and to any one skill check, but -2 to Spot and Listen
• Be Prepared When the players come to an obstacle like a gorge or dark cave, thus discovering that they need a torch or rope or some other mundane thing, and no one has such a thing on their character sheet, the Ranger gets X% chance of having it.
• Camouflage Hide bonus = Ranger Level when in wilderness. Takes 10 full-round actions to apply, lasts 1 day.
• Expedition Leader Can provide an overland movement bonus to entire party, for purposes of calculating total movement over a period of days.

Include the simplified Two-Weapon Fighting as one of their options. This leaves them basically on par with Fighters as far as Two-Weapon Fighting goes-- at least, until the Fighter crawls up the TWF feat chain with all his bonus feats.

As far as Rangers go, I'd say bump them down to d8 HD and 3/4 BAB, but give them six skill points per level, the wilderness abilities, and upgrade their Reflex save. "Rangers" like Aragorn or Drizzt are high level Fighter/Rangers.

Of course, this completely wrecks the backwards compatibility this revision is supposed to have.