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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5098419" data-attributes="member: 5834">I'd love to see some data supporting that straight class rogues are among the most played classes. I'd put my money that the rogue is one of classes most likely to be multiclassed due to how encounters are designed.Medium BAB as it is called makes a class that relies solely on melee damage weak in combat. Take your average fighter: Let's say 16 str to start. At lvl 20 he'll have the following: +20 BAB + 5 str bonus (4 pt in str from advancement) + 4 weapon training + 2 greater weapon focus = 31 to hitAnd he'll do an average of +5 str + 4 weapon training + 4 double spec = +13 damage to hit.At lvl 20 a rogue: 16 dex 14 str+15 BAB + +5 dex mod (4 pts dex) + weapon focus +1 atk = +21 to hitfor +2 damage and sneak attack when he gets it.A DM designs an encounter where the fighter hits on around a 8 to 10 the rogue will need an 18 to 20 to hit that creature. This doesn't include all the feats the fighter gets for ripping through DR and the crit feats, something the rogue has less access to.Then the rogue has poor fort and will saves. That makes him susceptible to fear, hold spells, death type spells, and the like.And he doesn't have much ranged capacity. An archer fighter or ranger far exceeds a rogue's damage at range.Where does that leave the rogue? Sitting on the sideline in the toughest fights watching the +20 BAB classes and the arcane casters ripping it up. Is that where most players want to be? I doubt it.Yes. They are the only ones that can disable them. Though I imagine we could just buy a wand of summon monster 1 to open trapped doors if no one wants to play a rogue. Getting people in my group to play a rogue is like pulling teeth.Even today, the one guy that was going to play a rogue got bent over because the Second Darkness module has shadowy illumination everywhere. Can't sneak attack a concealed target. And no light source will overcome it.And when something flies, he also gets reamed. And when spells like blasphemy go off, he is most likely to fail his save. He's last on the list to be freed from paralysis because he's the weakest fighter. Can't go toe to toe with the big bad guys without getting wasted, so we spend spellpower getting the +20 BAB classes out first.All in all, our group experience with the rogue is such that no one plays a straight class rogue because they are weak in combat. And you can get alot of what you need from the rogue by multiclassing with fighter or ranger.I just wish the rogue were another class designed well enough that my players wouldn't mind playing them to 20 or at all. When one of them has to play the rogue, you would have thought they had been given a prison sentence. They love every class except the rogue. I play mostly arcane casters, so I'm the one that thinks the wizard is a bit lacking. I prefer the sorcerer. All those cool bloodline feats and powers seem alot more fun. And versatility isn't needed too much, especially when you can't change midcombat as a wizard. Just the other day some sorcerer was blasting me with differnt types of energy and my sorcerer was putting up different types of resist energy. Hard to do that as a wizard using all those spell slots for resist energy.And it is extremely expensive to build a quality spellbook. And extremely cheap to be a sorcerer. Sure, you lack spell versatility. But you get enough slots that 90% of the most commonly cast spells will be on your list. And you can cast them spontaneously, must better than having to memorise them.In a spur of the moment combat, I'd take a wizard over a sorcerer player skill being equal. And with as many feats as you get now, you can load up on metamagic feats that the sorcerer can cast spontaneously including quicken. Pretty damn nifty if you ask me. Lots of different potent spell themes to build around as a sorcerer too. Want to dominate people? Go fey. Want to be more versatile? Go arcane. Want to be a shapechanger? Go Aberrant. Alot of interesting abilities given to sorcerers. Wizards have some too, just not as many.</blockquote>

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