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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 8639664" data-attributes="member: 6877472">I could respond with &quot;why do DM's think the players have to have a high chance of failure?&nbsp; Why is the expected baseline a 60% chance to succeed instead of 75%?&nbsp; It's so odd, I can't think of a single interesting story where the protagonist fails at everything.&nbsp; Why is that the prevailing fantasy of modern D&amp;D dungeonmasters?But that's not exactly the problem.&nbsp; The problem is a task that is difficult for a optimized high level character should not be a task that is reasonable, or an expected option for a character of any level.&nbsp; At any level of the game, characters should be allowed to have reasonable chances of success at reasonable things.&nbsp; If my party has no Charisma-based characters, and our best diplomat has a Persuade check of +3 which should be viable for play since the rules never enforce someone being better than this (and in fact, people tell me all the time you don't need to optimize for 5e), and you go &quot;wait, wouldn't it be better if we work together instead of fight each other needlessly?&quot; your DC shouldn't be 20.The social interaction rules give you opportunities to lower the DC or possibly gain advantage- but that's out of a player's control.&nbsp; They have to convince the DM for this to be a viable or reasonable course of action.&nbsp; So let's say our hypothetical +3 Persuade guy drops the DC to 15.&nbsp; And you get that help action.&nbsp; You still need to roll a 12 or better, and what is that at this point, a 37.5% chance of success?&nbsp; Not even a coin flip.Is it any wonder why there's so many murderhobos out there who decide &quot;man, it's just easier to beat monsters up than to talk to them&quot;?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 8639664, member: 6877472"] I could respond with "why do DM's think the players have to have a high chance of failure? Why is the expected baseline a 60% chance to succeed instead of 75%? It's so odd, I can't think of a single interesting story where the protagonist fails at everything. Why is that the prevailing fantasy of modern D&D dungeonmasters? But that's not exactly the problem. The problem is a task that is difficult for a [B]optimized high level character [/B]should not be a task that is reasonable, or an expected option for a character of any level. At any level of the game, characters should be allowed to have reasonable chances of success at reasonable things. If my party has no Charisma-based characters, and our best diplomat has a Persuade check of +3 [B]which should be viable for play since the rules never enforce someone being better than this [/B](and in fact, people tell me all the time you don't need to optimize for 5e), and you go "wait, wouldn't it be better if we work together instead of fight each other needlessly?" your DC shouldn't be 20. The social interaction rules give you opportunities to lower the DC or possibly gain advantage- but that's out of a player's control. They have to convince the DM for this to be a viable or reasonable course of action. So let's say our hypothetical +3 Persuade guy drops the DC to 15. And you get that help action. You still need to roll a 12 or better, and what is that at this point, a 37.5% chance of success? Not even a coin flip. Is it any wonder why there's so many murderhobos out there who decide "man, it's just easier to beat monsters up than to talk to them"? [/QUOTE]

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