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Message: <blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 8640941" data-attributes="member: 6877472">The disconnect is why it's a hard challenge in the first place. Or why hard challenges are DC 20 in a bound skill system.  I mean, let's compare to 3e.Now, this is the 3e PHB DC chart. Difficulty (DC) Example (Skill Used)Very easy (0)Notice something large in plain sight (<a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm" target="_blank">Spot</a>)Easy (5)Climb a knotted rope (<a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm" target="_blank">Climb</a>)Average  (10) Hear an approaching guard (<a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm" target="_blank">Listen</a>)Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (<a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm" target="_blank">Disable Device</a>)Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water (<a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm" target="_blank">Swim</a>)Formidable (25) Open an average lock (<a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/openLock.htm" target="_blank">Open Lock</a>)Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm (<a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm" target="_blank">Jump</a>)Nearly impossible (40) Track a squad of <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm" target="_blank">orcs</a> across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (<a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/survival.htm" target="_blank">Survival</a>)Now at first you might say, ok, so what, it's double the DC's of 5e (EDIT: well no, because I forgot DC 25).But here's the thing.A first level character with a 16 and 4 skill points invested in a skill has +7.  Many races grant +2 skill bonuses.  There are Feats (in a system with more plentiful feats) that grant +2 or +3 to skill checks.  There are synergy bonuses for having 5 ranks in one skill adding +2 to another.  You can get magic items that grant competence bonuses.  Ability scores can easily go about 20.  And at level 20, you can have +23 to a check from skill points alone.Now if we compare Diplomacy in 3e to 5e, we find that yeah, getting a Hostile character to Friendly (a bit better than the proposed DC 20 check) is actually DC 35 in 3e; so probably not something a 1st level character should be doing.Although, by level 10, a character could have a check have a check of +30, with a 80% chance of success and that's not even using Feats or Spells!Compare and contrast the level 10 example above.</blockquote>

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