What skill do you use to research at a library?

[irdeggman]

No, that's not a real rule. Research (Int) is a skill in d20 Modern, btw.

Actually its listed under learning a spell for a specific case.

It would be situationally dependent for other things. Like if the skill carried a penalty for failure and something physically bad happened. Well you can't undo the bad, but after gaining more skill with the task you should be able to try it again. This is different than taking 20 it is attempting the task again under different circumstances, which to me makes it a different task.

 

[pawsplay]

Actually its listed under learning a spell for a specific case.

It would be situationally dependent for other things. Like if the skill carried a penalty for failure and something physically bad happened. Well you can't undo the bad, but after gaining more skill with the task you should be able to try it again. This is different than taking 20 it is attempting the task again under different circumstances, which to me makes it a different task.

Right, but for any given check ("What is that monster?") there is no reroll. None. Them's the rules, for better or worse.

 

[irdeggman]

Right, but for any given check ("What is that monster?") there is no reroll. None. Them's the rules, for better or worse.

Again this is not a reroll - we are talking about different circumstances - the question was about trying again after you put another rank into the skill, not straight up reattempting the check.

You can't reattempt the skill check, but the "task" being attempted is now different.

You make a skill check to attempt a "task", a "task" would be defined by the circumstances.

 

[pawsplay]

Right, but it's hard to imagine "new circumstances" for "Do you recognize this holy symbol?" or whatever. The symbol is not going to change. You could allow a reroll if they gain a new level or rank (AD&D typically does in such situations), if they gain a new positive modifier (Hero allows this), or if they expend adequate effort (GURPS allows this, often at a levy of a Fatigue point if they push things), but as written, D&D allows no rerolls to core Knowledge checks.

The author of Weapons of Legacy was apparently unaware of that, since they specify multiple Knowedge checks to gradually identify one item.

 

[irdeggman]

Right, but it's hard to imagine "new circumstances" for "Do you recognize this holy symbol?" or whatever. The symbol is not going to change. You could allow a reroll if they gain a new level or rank (AD&D typically does in such situations), if they gain a new positive modifier (Hero allows this), or if they expend adequate effort (GURPS allows this, often at a levy of a Fatigue point if they push things), but as written, D&D allows no rerolls to core Knowledge checks.

The author of Weapons of Legacy was apparently unaware of that, since they specify multiple Knowedge checks to gradually identify one item.

Actually knowledge checks reveal what you know.

If you add a rank then you by that very nature "know" more - hence the change in circumstances. That is why it in not a reroll, but a check against your "new knowledge level".

Gaining ranks is very different than gaining an ability modifer (for which there are numerous ways to gain temporary bonuses).

 

[pawsplay]

Actually knowledge checks reveal what you know.

If you add a rank then you by that very nature "know" more - hence the change in circumstances. That is why it in not a reroll, but a check against your "new knowledge level".

Gaining ranks is very different than gaining an ability modifer (for which there are numerous ways to gain temporary bonuses).

That's a made up rule. I'm not saying it's a bad one, but it's still made up. The rules do not define new circumstances thusly (or much at all).

Also, how are you defining the task? If it's not a try again, then logically, you could gain a rank and fail a check, causing you to know less.

 

[irdeggman]

That's a made up rule. I'm not saying it's a bad one, but it's still made up. The rules do not define new circumstances thusly (or much at all).

Also, how are you defining the task? If it's not a try again, then logically, you could gain a rank and fail a check, causing you to know less.

Not really the rules don't specifically cover it - they only cover "successive" attempts - which means attempts taken in a row.

Pg 88 under try again

"Any conditions that apply to successive attempts to use the skill successfully. If a skill doesn't allow you to attempt the same task more than once, or if a failure carries an inherent penalty (such as with the climb skill), you can't take 20. If this paragraph is omitted, the skill can be retried without an inherent penalty, other than the additional time required."


Note that retry only refers to "successive" attempts - not to ones with different "circumstances" or that may be considered different "tasks".


What do ranks mean to you then?

If a rank is not a measure of how much you know (for knowledge skills for others it translates into "skill" while ability modifiers translate into "natural ability" although untrained) then what does it signify?

PHB pg 78 under knowledge and why you can't try again

"No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place."

Earlier under the base description
"Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discirpline."

In essence knowledge represents "learning", adding ranks represents learning more.

 

[Jhaelen]

If it's not a try again, then logically, you could gain a rank and fail a check, causing you to know less.

Following that bizarro logic knowledge skills wouldn't work at all.

Knowledge skills allow no rerolls because as stated "you either know it or you don't". If you could not make a new attempt after increasing a knowledge skill rank it would be impossible to learn anything new. If it was impossible to learn anything new, you couldn't learn anything at all. I.e. regardless what your knowledge skill is, you'll never know anything.

So, yes, it makes perfect sense to allow another skill check after increasing ranks.

 

[pawsplay]

Following that bizarro logic knowledge skills wouldn't work at all.

Knowledge skills allow no rerolls because as stated "you either know it or you don't". If you could not make a new attempt after increasing a knowledge skill rank it would be impossible to learn anything new. If it was impossible to learn anything new, you couldn't learn anything at all. I.e. regardless what your knowledge skill is, you'll never know anything.

Actually, that's not true. Knowledge skills are not required to know facts. Knowledge skills are a fund of knowledge that increases the chances of gaining a fact, but lacking a Knowledge skill does not mean lacking facts. For instance, even a dragon with no Knowledge (arcana) knows about its own characteristics. The idea of "unknowing" was my stab at saying there is no novel task to attempt with Knowledge checks; you get one shot.

Now, it would be "perfectly logical" is instead of "No," the skill section said, "Yes; you may attempt a new Knowledge check after gaining at least 1 rank in the Knowledge skill or spending at least one day researching, which requires an appropriate source of knowledge such as a library (GM's decision)." That would make a lot of sense as well as be consistent with other similar situations in game as well as similar checks in previous editions of the game. Sadly, that is not what happened.

EDIT: Incidentally, since the question has basically been answered, I hope no one minds me belaboring the rules because I think it's interesting. Certainly no disrespect is intended to anyone who takes my post as flip or contrary.