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What spells should be dropped?
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9013509" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>I don't think we have enough of the new rules to answer for certain right now. All we could do now (at best) is to say which spells are well known to be broken in the 2014 ruleset. Wotc needs to go through</p><p>Every.</p><p>Single.</p><p>Spell.</p><p>and seriously ask "Is this spell targeting a need in <em>this</em> edition, or is it 'iconic'/still in place simply because it targeted a mechanical need that only existed because of rules that were in place when the spell was created during 2e/3/x?" Look at the spells through different editions where they existed & ask what mechanics made them important back then while doing it. If those mechanics were no longer present, the spell is probably not worth keeping or current mechanics might need serious tweaks if not optional rules to support them</p><p></p><p></p><p>Just looking at some of the examples in the thread so far take rope trick for example</p><p>[spoiler="2e rope trick"]</p><p>Rope Trick</p><p>(Alteration)</p><p></p><p>Range: Touch Components: V, S, M</p><p>Duration: 2 <strong>turns</strong>/level Casting Time: 2</p><p>Area of Effect: Special Saving Throw: None</p><p></p><p>When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long,</p><p>one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs per-</p><p>pendicular, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fas-</p><p>tened to an extradimensional space. The spellcaster and up to seven</p><p>others can climb up the rope and disappear into this place of safety</p><p>where no creature can find them. The rope can be taken into the</p><p>extradimensional space if fewer than eight persons have climbed it;</p><p>otherwise, it simply stays hanging in the air (extremely strong creatures</p><p>might be able to remove it, at the DM’s option). Spells cannot be cast</p><p>across the interdimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it.</p><p>Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if there were</p><p>a 3-foot × 5-foot window centered on the rope. The persons in the</p><p>extradimensional space must climb down prior to the end of the spell,</p><p>or they are dropped from the height at which they entered the extradi-</p><p>mensional space. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a</p><p>time. Note that the rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal</p><p>place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.</p><p>Also note that creating or taking extradimensional spaces into an exist-</p><p>ing extradimensional space is hazardous.</p><p> The material components of this spell are powdered corn extract</p><p>and a twisted loop of parchment.</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>[spoiler="3.5 rope trick"]</p><p>Rope Trick</p><p>Transmutation</p><p>Level: Sor/Wiz 2</p><p>Components: V, S, M</p><p>Casting Time: 1 standard action</p><p>Range: Touch</p><p>Target: One touched piece of rope from</p><p>5 ft. to 30 ft. long</p><p>Duration: 1 hour/level (D)</p><p>Saving Throw: None</p><p>Spell Resistance: No</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope</p><p>from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope</p><p>rises into the air until the whole rope</p><p>hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if</p><p>affixed at the upper end. The upper end is,</p><p>in fact, fastened to an extradimensional</p><p>space that is outside the multiverse of</p><p>extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Crea-</p><p>tures in the extradimensional space are</p><p>hidden, beyond the reach of spells</p><p>(including divinations), unless those spells</p><p>work across planes. The space holds as</p><p>many as eight creatures (of any size).</p><p>Creatures in the space can pull the rope up</p><p>into the space, making the rope “disap-</p><p>pear.” In that case, the rope counts as one</p><p>of the eight creatures that can fit in the</p><p>space. The rope can support up to 16,000</p><p>pounds. A weight greater than that can</p><p>pull the rope free.</p><p>Spells cannot be cast across the extra-</p><p>dimensional interface, nor can area effects</p><p>cross it. Those in the extradimensional</p><p>space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by- 5-</p><p>foot window were centered on the rope.</p><p>The window is present on the Material</p><p>Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures</p><p>that can see the window can’t see through</p><p>it. Anything inside the extradimensional</p><p>space drops out when the spell ends. The</p><p>rope can be climbed by only one person at</p><p>a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers</p><p>to reach a normal place if they do not</p><p>climb all the way to the extradimensional</p><p>space.</p><p>Note: It is hazardous to create an ex-</p><p>tradimensional space within an existing</p><p>extradimensional space or to take an ex-</p><p>tradimensional space into an existing one.</p><p>Material Component: Powdered corn</p><p>extract and a twisted loop of parchment.</p><p></p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p><a href="https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/complete-warrior--61/faster-healing--1084/index.html" target="_blank">3.5 natural healing</a> was pretty slow & spell slot recovery took various forms of a good night's rest plus an hour of study/prayer from class to class so obviously 5e's addition of short rests makes the spell massively better than it was in 3.x. The spell was not introduced in 3.5 though & it's been clinging to a purpose that hasn't exsted since 2e all of these years though,</p><p></p><p></p><p>Back in 2e you had 10minute turns</p><p>[spoiler="2e PHB23 text"]Turns were 10 minutes (PHB197) & if you got your con to 20 or above you'd start regrating HP just with the passing of time. That regen would start at 1hp every 6 turns & drop a round every point of con till it was 1/1 at 25con (PHB21).[/spoiler]</p><p>spell recovery was:</p><p>[spoiler="10 minutes of prayer/study PER spell level"]</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">PHB107<br /> "Memorization is not a thing that happens immediately. The wizard must have a clear head gained from a restful night’s sleep and then has to spend time studying his spell books. The amount of study time needed is 10 minutes per level of the spell being memorized. Thus, a 9th-level spell (the most powerful) would require 90 minutes of careful study. Clearly, high-level spellcasters do not lightly change their memorized spells."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">PHB111<br /> "Priests must pray to obtain spells, as they are requesting their abilities from some greater power, be it their deity or some intermediary agent of this power. The conditions for praying are identical to those needed for the wizard’s studying."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">PHB81<br /> " Healing: A character proficient in healing knows how to use natural medicines and basic principles of first aid and doctoring. If the character tends another within one round of wounding (and makes a successful proficiency check), his ministrations restore 1d3 hit points (but no more hit points can be restored than were lost in the previous round). Only one healing attempt can be made on a character per day.<br /> If a wounded character remains under the care of someone with healing proficiency, that character can recover lost hit points at the rate of 1 per day even when traveling or engaging in nonstrenuous activity. If the wounded character gets complete rest, he can recover 2 hit points per day while under such care. Only characters with both healing and herbalism proficiencies can help others recover at the rate of 3 hit points per day of rest. This care does not require a proficiency check, only the regular attention of the proficient character. Up to six patients can be cared for at any time."</li> </ul><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>And if you got your con to 20 or higher (usually with magic items) you started recovering 1hp per 6 turns (6*10min turns=1 hour).</p><p></p><p>Rope trick hasn't had a reason to exist for a very long time & 5e took it even further from having a reason when it added short rests.</p><p></p><p>Melfsacid arrow was another good example... Prior to cantrips it was an economical way of dealing acid damage to nullify certain regeneration abilities (ie trolls) for multiple rounds, but then cantrips became even more economical & what the caster was probably going to use on their turn no matter what while the monster side mechanics that it was important for were stripped in so many ways.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9013509, member: 93670"] I don't think we have enough of the new rules to answer for certain right now. All we could do now (at best) is to say which spells are well known to be broken in the 2014 ruleset. Wotc needs to go through Every. Single. Spell. and seriously ask "Is this spell targeting a need in [I]this[/I] edition, or is it 'iconic'/still in place simply because it targeted a mechanical need that only existed because of rules that were in place when the spell was created during 2e/3/x?" Look at the spells through different editions where they existed & ask what mechanics made them important back then while doing it. If those mechanics were no longer present, the spell is probably not worth keeping or current mechanics might need serious tweaks if not optional rules to support them Just looking at some of the examples in the thread so far take rope trick for example [spoiler="2e rope trick"] Rope Trick (Alteration) Range: Touch Components: V, S, M Duration: 2 [B]turns[/B]/level Casting Time: 2 Area of Effect: Special Saving Throw: None When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs per- pendicular, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fas- tened to an extradimensional space. The spellcaster and up to seven others can climb up the rope and disappear into this place of safety where no creature can find them. The rope can be taken into the extradimensional space if fewer than eight persons have climbed it; otherwise, it simply stays hanging in the air (extremely strong creatures might be able to remove it, at the DM’s option). Spells cannot be cast across the interdimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if there were a 3-foot × 5-foot window centered on the rope. The persons in the extradimensional space must climb down prior to the end of the spell, or they are dropped from the height at which they entered the extradi- mensional space. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. Note that the rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space. Also note that creating or taking extradimensional spaces into an exist- ing extradimensional space is hazardous. The material components of this spell are powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment. [/spoiler] [spoiler="3.5 rope trick"] Rope Trick Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Crea- tures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disap- pear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free. Spells cannot be cast across the extra- dimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by- 5- foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space. Note: It is hazardous to create an ex- tradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an ex- tradimensional space into an existing one. Material Component: Powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment. [/spoiler] [URL='https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/complete-warrior--61/faster-healing--1084/index.html']3.5 natural healing[/URL] was pretty slow & spell slot recovery took various forms of a good night's rest plus an hour of study/prayer from class to class so obviously 5e's addition of short rests makes the spell massively better than it was in 3.x. The spell was not introduced in 3.5 though & it's been clinging to a purpose that hasn't exsted since 2e all of these years though, Back in 2e you had 10minute turns [spoiler="2e PHB23 text"]Turns were 10 minutes (PHB197) & if you got your con to 20 or above you'd start regrating HP just with the passing of time. That regen would start at 1hp every 6 turns & drop a round every point of con till it was 1/1 at 25con (PHB21).[/spoiler] spell recovery was: [spoiler="10 minutes of prayer/study PER spell level"] [LIST] [*]PHB107 "Memorization is not a thing that happens immediately. The wizard must have a clear head gained from a restful night’s sleep and then has to spend time studying his spell books. The amount of study time needed is 10 minutes per level of the spell being memorized. Thus, a 9th-level spell (the most powerful) would require 90 minutes of careful study. Clearly, high-level spellcasters do not lightly change their memorized spells." [*]PHB111 "Priests must pray to obtain spells, as they are requesting their abilities from some greater power, be it their deity or some intermediary agent of this power. The conditions for praying are identical to those needed for the wizard’s studying." [*]PHB81 " Healing: A character proficient in healing knows how to use natural medicines and basic principles of first aid and doctoring. If the character tends another within one round of wounding (and makes a successful proficiency check), his ministrations restore 1d3 hit points (but no more hit points can be restored than were lost in the previous round). Only one healing attempt can be made on a character per day. If a wounded character remains under the care of someone with healing proficiency, that character can recover lost hit points at the rate of 1 per day even when traveling or engaging in nonstrenuous activity. If the wounded character gets complete rest, he can recover 2 hit points per day while under such care. Only characters with both healing and herbalism proficiencies can help others recover at the rate of 3 hit points per day of rest. This care does not require a proficiency check, only the regular attention of the proficient character. Up to six patients can be cared for at any time." [/LIST] [/spoiler] And if you got your con to 20 or higher (usually with magic items) you started recovering 1hp per 6 turns (6*10min turns=1 hour). Rope trick hasn't had a reason to exist for a very long time & 5e took it even further from having a reason when it added short rests. Melfsacid arrow was another good example... Prior to cantrips it was an economical way of dealing acid damage to nullify certain regeneration abilities (ie trolls) for multiple rounds, but then cantrips became even more economical & what the caster was probably going to use on their turn no matter what while the monster side mechanics that it was important for were stripped in so many ways. [/QUOTE]
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