D&D 5E What Spells Would You Nerf? (and how would you change them...)

[Benjamin Olson]

I limit the nutritional value one can get from Goodberry because I struggle enough to keep wilderness exploration interesting without eliminating the need to scavenge for food.

I'm definitely a proponent of making a check to Revivify, or really to use any back from the dead magic other than True Resurrection (because Level 9) or Reincarnation (which comes with it's own drawback). It doesn't need to be a difficult one, but having at least the possibility of death without a TPK makes the stakes more meaningful. I don't need my D&D to be constantly deadly, but I like having a small but credible threat of death.

Heat metal. This spell used to be fairly mediocre but now it's just insane as the animated spellbook heat metal episode nicely showed... not really sure how I'd fix it, maybe a low damage dot without concentration

I find that Heat Metal is limited enough by being irrelevant to most combat against monsters. It is usually useable against a group of humanoid, goblinoid, etc. attackers, but being a one target deal against folk who often come in packs somewhat limits that. I also find that playing a Bard I usually have to use at least one of my bonus actions while it is active on a healing word or inspiration. I suppose it depends on your campaign. For me it usually just ends up being a sideline-one-mook spell, and I'm lucky to get more than one bonus action round out of it. In terms of damage, unless you do get to re-up the damage it does less than a Magic Missile (the other prominent, low-level automatically works spell) while being a slot level higher and doing a far more commonly resisted type of damage. The main annoyance it causes at my tables is not being overpowered, but that the player has to constantly ask the DM about enemies' equipment.

Which is not to say it isn't awesome sometimes, but it's okay for a character to be able to steamroll an enemy occasionally. The DM just shouldn't put an enemy who they want to have be a major challenge in heavy armor or make them otherwise dependant on a metal item unless they give them fire resistance/immunity and/or a few extra hit points.

If I were going to nerf it, the obvious way would be to impose the conspicuously absent need for a saving throw to avoid damage. But really that just makes it comparable to Flaming Sphere except fussier.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Wow, that's realllllly weird. I could have sworn Dispel Magic only removed one effect. I feel like I have just arrived from an alternate reality.

It seems to me that removing (potentially) all effects makes it an enormously potent spell. So, yeah, I'd absolutely adopt that nerf.

Were they the Berenstein Bears in your dimension?

In my experience the multi-spell stack up on one creature is rare enough to let a third level spell be situationally very powerful. You are also still making ability checks for each spell. It never seemed particularly overpowered. But it depends what sort of enemies you are up against and their tactics, so your mileage may vary.

 

[NotAYakk]

Heat Metal's damage is nice, but what makes it crazy is the disadvantage part.

Death Knight? Becomes a clutz with one 2nd level spell.

The damage isn't horrible. A 5th level slot dealing 5d8 or 22.5 DPR with concentration, compared to animate objects dealing 65 at +8 to hit, isn't great.

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Dispel magic dropping all magic effects also gets rid of some ridiculous cheese (I defend the important buff with a pile of weak buffs!) and is another blow against CoDzilla (you cannot rely on self-buffs to stay around).

 

[Oofta]

Let's see...

Heat Metal I rule that the target gets a save vs disadvantage every round. I've considered just banning casting it on armor - armor is always multiple pieces never just one. That and any armor you could cast it on has significant padding.

Raise Dead is more limited than the standard, you actually have to go to Nifleheim (Shadowfell) to retrieve the soul before it moves on to it's final destination. There are likely to be consequences.

Resurrection is probably a myth, definitely not meant for PCs. If it ever was effectively cast it may open a portal to Hel with significant consequences.

Teleportation beyond line of sight is banned for story reasons. Being able to easily teleport around the world is boring.

Plane Shift only opens a portal, there are a limited number of portals.

Spells that send a creature back to their home plane or easily summon creatures from another plane (other than the Feywild or Shadowfell) are banished.

 

[tetrasodium]

Heat Metal's damage is nice, but what makes it crazy is the disadvantage part.

Death Knight? Becomes a clutz with one 2nd level spell.

The damage isn't horrible. A 5th level slot dealing 5d8 or 22.5 DPR with concentration, compared to animate objects dealing 65 at +8 to hit, isn't great.

---

Dispel magic dropping all magic effects also gets rid of some ridiculous cheese (I defend the important buff with a pile of weak buffs!) and is another blow against CoDzilla (you cannot rely on self-buffs to stay around).

animate object is a 5th level spell that requires the object(s) to make attack rolls. Heat metal is a second level spell that requires you to ask "is [he/she/it] wearing metal?"

 

[tetrasodium]

I limit the nutritional value one can get from Goodberry because I struggle enough to keep wilderness exploration interesting without eliminating the need to scavenge for food.

I'm definitely a proponent of making a check to Revivify, or really to use any back from the dead magic other than True Resurrection (because Level 9) or Reincarnation (which comes with it's own drawback). It doesn't need to be a difficult one, but having at least the possibility of death without a TPK makes the stakes more meaningful. I don't need my D&D to be constantly deadly, but I like having a small but credible threat of death.



I find that Heat Metal is limited enough by being irrelevant to most combat against monsters. It is usually useable against a group of humanoid, goblinoid, etc. attackers, but being a one target deal against folk who often come in packs somewhat limits that. I also find that playing a Bard I usually have to use at least one of my bonus actions while it is active on a healing word or inspiration. I suppose it depends on your campaign. For me it usually just ends up being a sideline-one-mook spell, and I'm lucky to get more than one bonus action round out of it. In terms of damage, unless you do get to re-up the damage it does less than a Magic Missile (the other prominent, low-level automatically works spell) while being a slot level higher and doing a far more commonly resisted type of damage. The main annoyance it causes at my tables is not being overpowered, but that the player has to constantly ask the DM about enemies' equipment.

Which is not to say it isn't awesome sometimes, but it's okay for a character to be able to steamroll an enemy occasionally. The DM just shouldn't put an enemy who they want to have be a major challenge in heavy armor or make them otherwise dependant on a metal item unless they give them fire resistance/immunity and/or a few extra hit points.

If I were going to nerf it, the obvious way would be to impose the conspicuously absent need for a saving throw to avoid damage. But really that just makes it comparable to Flaming Sphere except fussier.

I agree about goodberry being a bit too easy that it gets both food & water requirements for an entire day for one berry. It would be ok if just one or the other. As it is, any attempt at creating tension & urgency with this

results in one first level spell slot for the entire party plus a few more & they don't even need to stop to repeat at night or something when they stop for a short rest or decide not to go for forced march penalties rather than getting back all hp/spell slots/class abilities with a good night's sleep. It winds up in the pressure of needing supplies feeling contrived if you try to use it

 

[NotAYakk]

Man, people really can't do math.

Anyhow, Healing Spirit.

1) I require creatures healed by healing magic to spend one of their own HD (and gain its heal). This makes healing spirit a way to activate HD more than heal. (Exception: ring of regeneration and regeneration spell)

2) It heals at most 1 time each round, not once per turn.

3) It gains 1d6 from +2 levels, not +1 level.

A 4th level healing spirit is 20d6 or 70 HP, but also activates 10 HD, possibly all on same target.

A 4th level healing prayer heals ~23 HP x 6 or 138, and activates 6 HD, and only on 6 different targets.

A 6th level healing spirit is 30d6 or 105 HP and requires 10 HD.

A 6th level healing prayer heals 32*6 or 192 and requires 6 HD.

This rule also boosts healing potions and in-combat healing significantly.

(You can also recover missing HD during a short rest)

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Heat Metal's damage is nice, but what makes it crazy is the disadvantage part.

Death Knight? Becomes a clutz with one 2nd level spell.

Heat Metal is a really good choice against that particular enemy, but situationally overpowered and overpowered are two different beasts. It really depends a lot on encounter design. The fact that I've usually only seen it used against Bandit #3 or whatever is probably why I completely forgot the disadvantage part.

And still, if a 9th level spellcaster who can also make three +11 to hit melee attacks and is designed with having undead minions in mind can't break a Bard's concentration because of disadvantage, or can't just generally continue to be a major threat with an average of roughly -4 to his attacks he was a clutz to begin with. If he didn't have the sense to bring friends, save his hellfire orb and Destructive Waves until the spellcasters started in with the concentration spells, and can't manage to land a Hold Person or a Banishment on them, then he is just a loser who deserves to lose.

But once again: encounter design. If the party is frequently up against solo enemies who can't get rid of the metal in contact with them and have no non-attack roll or ability check based ways to mess you up it does become crazy powerful for a level 2 spell and might deserve nerfing. I think the biggest problem is simply that it works in such an unusual way vs. other spells that it becomes a potential need-to-take-into-special-account spell, and DM's don't need more of those. I'd say that is a fair reason for general nerfing if the average DM frequently gears towards the sort of encounters where it is OP.

 

[toucanbuzz]

Healing Spirit: it's so broken and absurdly overpowered relative to all other healing spells. Stated in another post we tried the Crawford fix (double your casting modifier in healing doses), but once it got boosted to a 3rd level slot, still blasted every other healing spell out of the water.

Leomund's Tiny Hut: complete invincibility was not a feature of the original design, for a 3rd level slot. I understand the intent, but I've also seen the "force field" feature used to bypass walls of cursed fire, etc. Next campaign (I don't like to create uncertainty with groups by announcing changes every week), it's going back to original design: a bubble that protects against temperature and gases but that's it.

Goodberry: this erases any challenge out of survival. No rations, foraging, or anything. Just pop in your Willy Wonka candy and you're good for the day. Mmmm, tastes like mashed potatoes. Removing it for a Dark Sun campaign as it makes survival a joke (same with Create Food and Water), and considering removing it altogether. The AD&D version was a bit more restrictive: enchanted 2d4 existing "freshly picked" berries into magical ones, then you chose to either gain 1 hp or a full day's meal from one. Not both effects. The big thing was without fresh berries, the spell couldn't be used.

Banishment: this spell is absurd, a save or lose for anything, and while it may not banish natives, it turns them into piñatas when they pop back in as the party surrounds their spot and readies actions. This spell is far far away from its AD&D ancestor, the 7th level spell that had to overcome spell resistance (back then usually 50% or better) and had a backlash if failing. Thanks to spell resistance, in AD&D the spell wasn't expected to succeed very often, because we're talking about ending any fight with a pit fiend, balor, marut, or any number of super-powerful creatures with 1 effect. Once spell resistance was removed, the entire playing field of how spells like this worked was changed. Save or lose became a lot easier. So, I'm not a fan.

Conjure spells: Summoning small armies seems fun until someone has to manage them in combat, including providing stats. I've home-ruled that only the 1 or 2 creature options work.

 

[Oofta]

Heat Metal is a really good choice against that particular enemy, but situationally overpowered and overpowered are two different beasts. It really depends a lot on encounter design. The fact that I've usually only seen it used against Bandit #3 or whatever is probably why I completely forgot the disadvantage part.

And still, if a 9th level spellcaster who can also make three +11 to hit melee attacks and is designed with having undead minions in mind can't break a Bard's concentration because of disadvantage, or can't just generally continue to be a major threat with an average of roughly -4 to his attacks he was a clutz to begin with. If he didn't have the sense to bring friends, save his hellfire orb and Destructive Waves until the spellcasters started in with the concentration spells, and can't manage to land a Hold Person or a Banishment on them, then he is just a loser who deserves to lose.

But once again: encounter design. If the party is frequently up against solo enemies who can't get rid of the metal in contact with them and have no non-attack roll or ability check based ways to mess you up it does become crazy powerful for a level 2 spell and might deserve nerfing. I think the biggest problem is simply that it works in such an unusual way vs. other spells that it becomes a potential need-to-take-into-special-account spell, and DM's don't need more of those. I'd say that is a fair reason for general nerfing if the average DM frequently gears towards the sort of encounters where it is OP.

Which is all well and good until the bard casts heat metal and then just runs away and hides.

Personally, a lot of opponents in my campaign are going to be human (or humanoid) warrior types. Not necessarily solo, but BBEG wearing plate with supporting minions happens on a fairly regular basis. You can't effectively take off any metal armor in combat (and would nerf the NPC if you did).

But, like I said I just rule that the con check is every round (something I actually got from an AL DM). It was that or ban it.

But that's enough explanation, I don't see a reason to discuss further in this thread.