What the heck is going on with the professional RPG industry in regards to Zak S?

[Ghostwind]

EN World (and I) are not connected to the ENnies any more, and I don't have any insight into what they'll decide. I do know they announced that something was forthcoming.

I hope that announcement is sooner than later.

 

[MGibster]

I'm not sure I'd go that far as to say we endorse his behavior.

But, removing the credits does say that we don't.

I'd like to point something out real quick since this came up in earlier statements. This is a great example of disagreement without endorsing bad behavior. It also shows that we don't have to be afraid of disagreeing with one another.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Why does stripping him of credit for his contributions need to be part of his social punishment?

I am conflicted about this.

On one hand, the man did contribute to the book. He did work and I believe people should be rewarded for their work.

On the other hand, removing his name means that his victims aren't going to be reminded of him and what he did every time they page through the book.

 

[Imaro]

Looks like Wizards put up an official statement... https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/dndstatement

 

[S'mon]

I know, I was in Frank's game that got cancelled and was planning on going to his Frankenparty. But calling someone rapey is way beyond lecherous or even harrassing behavior.

Note: I don't know Frank personally, but throwing rape around casually is a bit much.

I agree, this is completely unacceptable. I'd report it, but obviously the mods have already
seen it and apparently don't agree.

 

[CleverNickName]

<My opinion>

It's possible to be a good writer and also a terrible person.
It's not possible to reward the one without also rewarding the other.

So I support the decision to strip him of his accolades--not because I feel his work never happened or wasn't good, but because I feel his terrible behavior must never be rewarded or ignored.

</My opinion>

 

[Umbran]

I am scared...

Could we please just go back to talking about game mechanics and the art and science of RPGs? ...

I'm still sad.

You are scared. You are sad. So we should all be silent, and not talk about such matters. I am sure, you are not comfortable. My sympathies for that.

But I am sure Zak's victims were not comfortable. I am sure my wife was not comfortable when she was sexually harassed by a member of a convention staff a couple of years back, either.

Being silent wasn't what dealt with that convention staff member. People were silent about Zak, and that didn't seem to make anyone safer. It looks like if we remained silent, Zak would still be able to victimize others. If we remain silent, other men will not recognize that such behavior will not be acceptable any longer, and they will not know of the consequences. And the young daughter of a friend of mine, who I recently taught how to play, who has become a GM in her own right, will have to suffer, because no change happens in silence.

Silence, Celebrim, is tacit acceptance of the bad behavior, in a practical sense. So, no, your discomfort is not sufficient to stop this discussion.

 

[Celebrim]

You are scared. You are sad. So we should all be silent, and not talk about such matters. I am sure, you are not comfortable. My sympathies for that.

But I am sure Zak's victims were not comfortable. I am sure my wife was not comfortable when she was sexually harassed by a member of a convention staff a couple of years back, either.

Being silent wasn't what dealt with that convention staff member. People were silent about Zak, and that didn't seem to make anyone safer. It looks like if we remained silent, Zak would still be able to victimize others. If we remain silent, other men will not recognize that such behavior will not be acceptable any longer, and they will not know of the consequences. And the young daughter of a friend of mine, who I recently taught how to play, who has become a GM in her own right, will have to suffer, because no change happens in silence.

Silence, Celebrim, is tacit acceptance of the bad behavior. So, no, your discomfort is not sufficient to stop this discussion.

Oh please. It's more than obvious that all your assertions have nothing to do with my stance. I have no problem with speaking out against sexual harassment, although, speaking out against sexual harassment hardly takes much bravery in this day and age. As some have pointed out in this thread, there are tons of sexual harassers out there taking a stand against sexual harassment. Harvey Weinstein even got awards for his work.

Brave Umbram, moderator at EnWorld, takes a big stand against sexual harassment by speaking up in forums he controls with approval of the owner taking a majority opinion? While we have a an explicit no politics rule that basically amounts to no politics but mine? This isn't courage. This isn't speaking out. This isn't doing anything. Who do you think you are standing up to? This is just another trainwreck of a thread on an internet forum that isn't going to stop one person from being harassed or heal one victim of the harassment. I wish that these problems could go away if we just keyboard warriored hard enough. It's the idea that we need another one of these threads that I object to, where you go around banning people in the name of making the world safe from sexual harassment.

What I think is that a person who rapes someone doesn't really think, "I'm not going to do this because I know society disapproves of it." People who get to the point where they are willing to do that to another human being aren't really thinking, "If only society disapproved of this more, I wouldn't do it.", and they sure as heck don't care about how much we have to say on an internet forum. I mean seriously, do you really think people engage in rape because they think society thinks it is acceptable, or do you not think it is possible that they don't care what society thinks and that for many the very fact that they are transgressing on societies mores is akin to the power trip they are feeling transgressing on someone's person. I mean seriously, I wrote very strongly against the Supreme Court opinion a 11 years ago in Kennedy vs. Louisiana, which outlawed the death penalty for violent pedophiles. But I didn't think ever that the fact that we had a growing number of states that were willing to apply the death penalty in the most incontrovertible cases of violent abuse short of death was going to actually stop sickos from raping kids. But, you know, if you want to speak out with me against Kennedy vs. Louisana and the awful legal reasoning that was behind it, I'd be all for that.

I don't know where this comes from. Maybe in your circles rape had been considered hitherto an 'ok' thing that we just tolerate or something, and now you are feeling guilty about that and think well we better change that, but I don't ever recall being near anyone that suggested rape was an OK thing. And heck, my standards on sexual behavior tend to view merely consensual as a really low bar to be passing. I'm not inside this gaming industry sub-culture, and maybe you are, but is it really true that know lots of men that are like OK with rape? Is that the problem here, that you know all these guys that are like down with rape and have never been told 'don't rape' and I in my naivety don't?

I tell you what, you want to join me in condemning the porn industry as exploitive and denigrating?

Or is this really not the place to be doing that?

 

[Immortal Sun]

Silence, Celebrim, is tacit acceptance of the bad behavior. So, no, your discomfort is not sufficient to stop this discussion.

There's probably a reason Celebrim feels uncomfortable when these issues come up. Maybe before he continues to involve himself in this conversation, he should talk about that.

 

[Celebrim]

There's probably a reason Celebrim feels uncomfortable when these issues come up. Maybe before he continues to involve himself in this conversation, he should talk about that.

Just thought I'd quote that before you get a chance to think better of it.