What the heck is going on with the professional RPG industry in regards to Zak S?

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Celebrim

Legend
But, [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION], the topic isn't #Metoo, or #Believeallwomen or Roman Polanski or the connection between harassment and the porn industry.

I'm not sure that's at all clear. I'm not the only one, and probably not the first one, to link Zak S's public outing to the larger social gestalt.

And in any event, it is I think much better to talk about the larger problem than to linger over the details of this particular tragedy except to the extent of, "How do we keep this from happening?"

the whole "maybe I ought to walk away slowly from the mob with its pitchforks and torches and schadenfreude" is really out in left field.

Not to me.

So, to me anyway, bringing in all these things is just derailing the conversation. These are your issues. These are things that concern you and I respect that. But, this is not the place for that conversation. This is the place for us, as a community, to talk about how to deal with this specific issue.

Zak does get any more industry honors. We make this public enough, as is was just done by EnWorld, that then people can decide if they would not want to buy or market the guys products. Done.

People a lot closer to the actual persons in this tragedy and actually care about them in more than just theory decide what to do to bring healing to Mandy and the other victims, and what if anything is to be done about Zak (because surely if something isn't done, this isn't going to be the last incidence of caused pain).

We strongly tell the community that they aren't responsible for dealing with this specific issue because dealing with 'this specific issue' is a good example of losing the path. They are only responsible for dealing with the issues in their own lives. This vicarious inspection of other peoples pain isn't healthy. Heck on that front, I wouldn't rescind the awards but that's not my business or my call. I didn't give them. Someone else is going to have to make that tough call. If it were me, I could think of only one reason to do it - you wanted to bring even more attention to this, maybe get some more mainstream coverage. But, even that, well I would hope for example Mandy was consulted as to whether she wanted more coverage.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
Maybe it's because I'm not American and I don't live in the US. I live in a country where up until about two or three years ago, major corporations had no local harassment policies.

I thought about bringing that up a couple of times but I didn't want to appear to be telling you about your own country, which you surely know more about than me.

Yes, Japan has a huge way to go on this.

I live next to a country of over a billion people where this year is the first year a civil sexual harassment case is being heard. The notion that things like #Metoo have had no impact is really ignoring the massive impact it has had. Is it perfect? Of course not. But, focusing on things that have gone badly while ignoring the good seems a poor way to go forward.

I may have the opposite bias. But if in fact our ugly affairs over here in the USA has had some sort of real positive impact outside the USA, then that really does truly hearten me.

And, AGAIN, you are trying to derail the conversation, digging into things like The War on Christmas and Baby It's Cold Outside. Good grief. Is it really that hard to stick to the point.

Tell me what this point is?
 

Sadras

Legend
I learned monsters were real when I was 13, and I didn't learn it from fairy tales.
You know what? I should have stopped reading right here:
That was my cue, and I missed it. Goodnight everyone.

I just want to say that you two, as well as others like Hussar and Danny, were/are having, from my perspective, a pretty meaningful conversation in a very respectful way despite being on opposite ends. It is a conversation that I wish was had more when these kinds of topics arise.
 

evileeyore

Mrrrph
Are we really going to go down this road?
Clearly.

This attempt at discussion chilling is noted.

Let's compare things shall we?
Not actually concerned with one guy who probably did deserve it, we all saw how he posted....

/looks at what was just written, recognizes the social currency forever spent...

:|




Some comedians are complaining about how they can't tell the same kinds of jokes they used to, workplaces now have mandatory sexual harassment training, the Pope is no longer denying but actively speaking out against sexual assault within the church.
[musical notes and sing-song voice]
One of these things is not like the other...
[/notes and voice]




And yes, I do think there is a connection between some modern political movements and Maoist China.
For me it's more a connection between the progress movement and Modern China with it's Social Credit Score.

Thankfully we aren't there yet... or... wait...

I hope that no further awards to Zak or forthcoming...
Is Zak unredeemable?

Can he never make amends for his abusive past?

Is his Social Credit Score forever to be null?




"Santa Baby".
"Baby It's Cold Outside", but yes exactly.




But, [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION], the topic isn't #Metoo, or #Believeallwomen or Roman Polanski or the connection between harassment and the porn industry. Every single one of those things are not what's being talked about here.
It's all linked. It's all one big movement. One big ball of progress being shoved in multiple directions.

In some directions, it's been great. In others, it's not good.

And, again, no one is talkign about going any further than excluding him from the hobby community, so, the whole "maybe I ought to walk away slowly from the mob with its pitchforks and torches and schadenfreude" is really out in left field.
Will the mob ever allow him back? If it's a definitive no, and I'm pretty sure it's a definitive no, maybe you can see our hesitation to trust your mob with those pitchforks and fiery brands.
 

Hussar

Legend
I suppose, at the end of the day, the question is less, "what should we do" but, rather, "is there anything we can do, and if there is, is it worth doing?"

Because, I will agree with [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] on this, there really isn't a whole lot we can actually do.

For me, I would be taking people like this off the "special guest list" at conventions and getting the word out to let people make an informed decision about whether or not they want to buy this person's product. Beyond that, really, there isn't a whole lot we can do.

In this specific example, it really has no personal impact. I never bought any of Zak S' products and, if you hadn't told me that his name was in the PHB, I wouldn't have actually known. But, as I mentioned back a few posts, other threads like this HAVE affected my buying practices. I don't use any Frog God stuff anymore. Is there anything more I could actually do? Nope. Not realistically.

But, getting the word out is a goal in and of itself, IMO.
 

Hussar

Legend
/snip
Will the mob ever allow him back? If it's a definitive no, and I'm pretty sure it's a definitive no, maybe you can see our hesitation to trust your mob with those pitchforks and fiery brands.

Nice. We're a "mob" now. And you wonder why you are having trouble having this discussion with people.

And, how can anyone actually answer that? Excuse me while I consult my crystal ball? Maybe my Magic 8 Ball of future prediction of how much people will accept sexual predators into their hobby will result in better answers.

Seriously, how is, "We're not going to buy this guy's products, nor do we want this person to be the "face" of our hobby" turned into "pitchforks and fiery brands"?

When you characterize the other side of a discussion as a mob, only interested in mob justice, I'm thinking that perhaps, just perhaps, you're part of the problem. If you are incapable of characterizing the other side of an issue without demonizing and dehumanizing them, don't be shocked when you are no longer invited to the fireside for a chat.
 

Sadras

Legend
Is Zak unredeemable?

Can he never make amends for his abusive past?

Is his Social Credit Score forever to be null?


...(snip)...

Will the mob ever allow him back? If it's a definitive no, and I'm pretty sure it's a definitive no, maybe you can see our hesitation to trust your mob with those pitchforks and fiery brands.

Those are hard questions.
If we believe in our society a person is redeemable, then stripping one of his accolades does, for me, seem to counter that belief.

The personal issue I have with this is - separating the artist from the artwork. Do we, don't we? Do we not watch Kevin Spacey movies anymore or anything produced by Harvey Weinstein? Am I not allowed to enjoy Woody Allen's Midnight in Paris or Polanski's play-gone-movie, Carnage?
There are posters on these boards that routinely quote from Frank Mentzer's RPG material, do we chastise them? Are future generations not permitted to see/read/buy that material, including the RPG work Zak S created but others with already purchased copies can enjoy all they want? I just find it all a bit messy, and hypocritical (myself included).
 
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evileeyore

Mrrrph
I don't believe the problem is we have a "rape culture", and so I don't think that a cultural movement is going to dent this.
Ahhhh.... mmmm...

Let me break this into its two constituent parts:

I don't believe the problem is we have a "rape culture"...
Agreed.

...and so I don't think that a cultural movement is going to dent this.
And I disagree. Clearly the movement has made coming forward easier.

Let me say that again: Clearly the movement has made coming forward easier.

That is an unconditional good on its own. Will it stop or slow criminal acts on it's own? Ahahahahaha. No. Criminals gonna criminal... but... it does mean more victims will come forward, perpetrators will be prosecuted, and hopefully this will result in a reduction.




Because, I will agree with [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] on this, there really isn't a whole lot we can actually do.
About Zak? We can have the discussion about whether he can ever redeem himself (and thus by extension any further individuals who get kicked out of the Club of Respectable People Allowed to Have a Career).

I ask in case my future facecrime causes the progress police to ask me to leave social media for the good of my family.
 
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pemerton

Legend
There’s a common refrain throughout this whole debacle about how the warning signs about Zak were always there, or how people have been calling him out on this crap for years. If that’s true, and I have no reason to believe it isn’t, why did it take until now for the gaming community as a whole to do something about it? What more could have been done?

I’m not sure the answer is anything at this point, and I’m growing more and more confident that’s not the right question. Part of the reason these threads get bogged down in is constantly rehashing the past. So instead I wonder; where do we go from here? How do we do more than simply react to bad behavior, but instead actively prevent it? This is a community driven hobby; I refuse to believe that we lack any kind of social power. But how to harness it in a way that’s productive and constructive, rather than simply reactive and retributive (not that such actions are not also important and effective) is what I’ve been mulling over today.

I don’t have any answers just yet, but I’m curious if anyone does.
I think it's unrealistic to expect that the RPG hobby community will be wildly different from any other community - assuming it even makes sense to speak of the RPG hobby community. The community/communities are just constituent elements of the societies they belong to, with members united by a shared interest in a particular leisure activity but not necessarily too much else.

I know nothing about angling as a hobby. If it turned out that a prominent figure in the angling hobby scene was a rapist or sexual harasser, and I happened to learn of that, I would be neither shocked nor not shocked. Many unpleasant people will have some hobby community they belong to, simply because many people in contemporary industrial urban communities have hobbies; and some unpleasant people - particularly the ones whose unpleasantness is likely to become widely known about - are prominent in their field.

If it turns out that angling, or RPGing, is particularly attractive as a hobby for rapists and harassers, that's a different thing. It might suggest there is some pathological element to the hobby. But I don't know of any evidence that that is so, at least for RPGing, though if you think it is I'd be interested to hear about it.

Only once on these boards have I had a PM from someone who thought they could guess something about my political/religious beliefs from my RPGing preferences. As it happened, that person was wrong - but very polite about it, so I was in no way offended. But the lesson I take from that is that it is hard to generalise from the fact that someone enjoys RPGing, or even enjoys RPGing this rather than that, to broader features/attitudes/behaviours of the person.

And I think this can be true even for very prominent persons. I find that the RPG Pundit's forums convey a particular tone that, to me, is redolent of certain broader attitudes to culture and politics; yet - at least last time I was there - there were moderators whose posting icons/avatars were of Woody Guthrie with the writing on his guitar saying "This Machine Kills Fascists".

If we're talking about what members of the ENWorld community can do, I think one of the simplest things would be for fewer posters to default to masculine pronouns when referring to generic GMs, players etc. It's a very common practice on these boards that I nevertheless find somewhat jarring every time I encounter it.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
I suppose, at the end of the day, the question is less, "what should we do" but, rather, "is there anything we can do, and if there is, is it worth doing?"

Because, I will agree with [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] on this, there really isn't a whole lot we can actually do.

For me, I would be taking people like this off the "special guest list" at conventions and getting the word out to let people make an informed decision about whether or not they want to buy this person's product. Beyond that, really, there isn't a whole lot we can do.

In this specific example, it really has no personal impact. I never bought any of Zak S' products and, if you hadn't told me that his name was in the PHB, I wouldn't have actually known. But, as I mentioned back a few posts, other threads like this HAVE affected my buying practices. I don't use any Frog God stuff anymore. Is there anything more I could actually do? Nope. Not realistically.

But, getting the word out is a goal in and of itself, IMO.

I do not buy From God stuff anymore. I will use my existing product though. I also watched House of Cards after Kevin Spacey's misdeeds.

In some ways it's what do you do. My mother told me some horrific stories about her first husband in the 60s and 70s but the man has been decent to me over the years and apparently changed his ways.

Mum didn't want him at her funeral I passed on her wishes but got over ruled. So what do you do punch out an old man in his 70s triggering a family meltdown and possibly assault charges or keep your mouth shut. I went with keep mouth shut sisters opinion was get over it.

I believed my mother I believed Mrs Bobbitt. I saw a case of sexual harassment in the workplace couple of years back she was 16 he was 32. Bosses son, supervisors daughter. Had a word with her and said I would back her but she said she didn't care so what do you do?

It's a really crap situation to be in, see or hear about. We had a false rape accusation here make news two days ago. Some if they guys I went to school with are kiddie fiddler's but guess what their dad did to them. Some if them got assaulted at home then beaten up at school for being assaulted.

Alot of laws pass Ed have been due to what happened. I live in one if the most liberal places on Earth but it wasn't illegal to rape your wife until the mid 80s same thing being gay. My mother was a victim my friend's mother, 2 ex girlfriends and these are just the ones I knew about.
 
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