What to do about dolphins and whales?

[Twiggly the Gnome]

because sapient just means "having wisdom/intelligence" which means magical beasts, dragons and giants all fit under the definition

Sure, but as a type it doesn't have to be all inclusive. Currently humanoid covers all human-like creatures, that aren't monstrous humanoids, giants, outsiders, aberrations....

Changing 'Magical' Beast to Fabulous Beast is a great idea however

That could work, but from a purely personal standpoint I'd go with a term like extraordinary or magnificent. I'd be too tempted to have fabulous beasts travel in packs of five giving adventurers make-overs.

 

[paradox42]

I would suggest Monstrous Humanoid, since that's a more flexible option than regular Humanoid. It is, as Twiggly noted, badly named- but at least in the case of Monstrous Humanoid there are precedents for use with completely non-humanoid-shaped creatures. Centaurs have human torsos, sure, but come on! They have six limbs for cripes' sake! Thri-Kreen, too, are a worthy example here. Cetaceans are clearly not base Humanoids like humans, elves, or orcs, and they're also not Magical (so the Magical Beast is really not appropriate- not to mention those get d10 HD whereas Animals only get d8s).

Monstrous Humanoid gets d8 hit dice, just like Animals do. They get good Reflex and Will saves, whereas Animals get Fortitude and Reflex (but some Animals change which two saves are good, so you can make this match the Monstrous Humanoid exactly with no fudging). The number of skill points per HD is identical between the two types, at 2 + INT mod. The BAB of an Animal is as Cleric, while Monstrous Humanoid gets BAB as Fighter, but then again- Magical Beasts get BAB as Fighter too, so you would have had that happen anyway on the switch from Animal to Beast.

Traits-wise, Animals get Low-Light Vision and Monstrous Humanoids get Darkvision, but both of those traits carry the standard caveat of "unless otherwise noted"- so you can otherwise note. Monstrous Humanoids are also supposed to be proficient with simple weapons and with some armors, but honestly- if cetaceans in your game are as smart as humans, shouldn't they be coming up with weapons and armor to use anyway? Also, once again you can "otherwise note" that cetaceans are proficient only with natural weapons and with no armor, if you're so inclined.

I think Monstrous Humanoid- despite the second word- is your best bet.

 

[el-remmen]

but honestly- if cetaceans in your game are as smart as humans, shouldn't they be coming up with weapons and armor to use anyway?

I think weaponry is more a result of culture/history/practicality than intelligence.

 

[trav_laney]

Personally, I leave them alone. Intelligence 1 or 2 is more than enough for an animal of any kind, and I've had arguments with my own players before about what makes a creature "intelligent."

If you dig deep enough, any animal can build a case to support a promotion to "Magical Beast" based on their ability to communicate with each other, find a mate, track and hunt prey, avoid hazards, and so forth. Not that there is anything wrong with that; it could be very interesting to make a game setting where all animals think and talk as well as humans do. Mythology and folklore are full of stuff like this...and it sounds like your campaign is employing something very similar.

But I digress.

If only the dolphins and whales are intelligent, it might be easier to make them Magical Beasts, like the Giant Eagle. And since druids cannot wild shape into magical beasts, that rule should apply. Perhaps there is a feat out there that will allow a PC druid to accomplish this.

Or perhaps you could create only one particular strain of "intelligent" dolphins, who intermingle with other standard dolphins...sort of the way a treant looks after the trees.

But for most campaigns, I'd leave it alone. Unless your dolphins are building cities and farming plankton, have a caste system to govern their people, and have made alliances with seahorses and whales to help them wage war against the sharks who are invading their lands, I wouldn't worry too much about cetacean intelligence.

 

[Tonguez]

Unless your dolphins are building cities and farming plankton, have a caste system to govern their people, and have made alliances with seahorses and whales to help them wage war against the sharks who are invading their lands, I wouldn't worry too much about cetacean intelligence.

Whale Rider PrC (my own homebrew class)

Amongst The People of the South Seas whales are revered as lords of the ocean, children of the Sea god Tangaroa. Mortal races live in awe of the mighty beasts and are humbled by the beauty of their song.

There are some for whom the song is a lure, The Crescent Island Spellsingers are one such who learn the song of the sea and the Whale riders are another. The Whale Rider become attuned to the Song of the Whales (and their cousins the dolphins), they learn to sing the song of the whales, become companions to the whales and even learn to ride upon the mighty beasts.

Alignment Any
Hit Dice d8
BAb - as Cleric
Fort Good
Reflx ?
Will ?
Skills 4+int
Animal Empathy (Cha,exclusive skill),Concentration (Con),Intuit Direction (Wis), Knowledge (nature)(Int), Listen (Wis), Perform(Cha), Profession (Wis), Speak Language (none), Swim (Str),and Wilderness Lore (Wis)

Requirements
Skills Swim 6 ranks, Animal Empathy 8 ranks, Listen 8 Ranks
Feats Endurance
Other: The character has had an encounter with a Cetacean whilst swimming (including drowning if applicable ie was saved by a dolphin)

Abilities per Level
1 Ride Skill, Improved Swim, Hold Breath x3

2 Whale Companion, Mounted Combat,

3 Hold Breath x4, Whale Song (Listen)

4 Hold Breath x 5, Blind fight

5 Water breathing (1 hour), Whale Song (Speak)

6, Deep Diving, Song of the Sea (Rebuke)

7 Whale Call, Water breathing (1d4 hours)

8 Whale Song (Emotion), Blindsight

9 Song of the Sea (Command)

10 Aquatic nature


Ride Skill: The Whale Rider gains character level +2 ranks in this unique skill. The skill is considered a class skill and can be increased normally (There are no large land animals imc and so no ‘standard’ ride skill. However this is the same skill granted as an ability)

Improved Swim (new feat) – The Whale rider is able to swim at ½ their base speed as a move action or ¾ their base speed as a full round action. Additionally Whale riders do not suffer the –1 penalty for swimming underwater (but still drown as per usual if they run out of breath)

Whale Companion – The Whale Rider is able to summon a Cetacean (Whale or Dolphin) who is willing to carry the rider on its back. The cetacean has an intelligence score of at least 6 and speaks the language of the Whale song (which may or may not be aquan)

Hold Breath – A normal character is able to hold their breath for constitution x 2 rounds. A Whale Rider through constant practice is able to extend this for much longer periods (initially Con x 3 etc)

Mounted Combat – The Whale Rider can use the Mounted Combat feat whilst riding her whale/dolphin companion

Deep Diving – The Whale rider does not suffer any ill effects from deep water (either due to pressure or cold)

Blind Sight – The Whale Rider is so attuned to the sounds around her that she is able to 'see' by sound alone.

Whale Song (Listen) The Whale Rider is able to understand the song of various cetaceans (whales and dolphins etc). Whale song travels for up to a mile and is likely to have information about weather conditions, food sources, sharks and other hazards in or on the water within a 1-mile radius. The Whale Rider should make a Wis mod+ level Check vs DC 15 to determine if a required peace of information is heard in the song (use the Bardic Knowledge chart to determine results)

Whale Song (Speak) The Whale Rider has gained mastery of the language of the Whale Song and is able to ask up to 3 questions (per day) of all Cetaceans (and other listeners (eg other Whale Riders, Merfolk etc). The Whale Rider may ask and (be informed) about the weather conditions, plants, minerals, ships, seabed topography, people, general animal population, presence of marine creatures, presence of powerful unnatural creatures, or even the general state of the surrounding sea in a 1 mile radius.

Whale Call: The Whale Rider is able to call to all cetaceans in a 1-mile radius, any cetaceans in the area they will gather within 1d6 minutes and respond positively to any reasonable request

Whale Song (Emotion) – By causing subtle changes in the ambient song the Whale Rider is able to affect the emotions of all creatures able to hear her within 100ft (+10ft per level). The effects are like those of the Emotion Spell

Water breathing – The Whale rider is able to breathe underwater for 1 hour per level allowing them to dive to great depths

Song of the Sea - The Whale Rider can use the Whale song to command other sea animals and beasts (sharks, fish, octopi, Sea Lions etc). Initially she can only rebuke non-cetaceans, however as she gains greater understanding of the Song she also gains the ability to give basic commands to non-cetaceans. The Whale Rider must make a perform check DC 10+creature int mod to succeed

Aquatic – The Whale Rider has become an Aquatic creature as at home in The water as on land. The Character suffers no penalties wshen swimming and is able to breath water for an indefinite period of time (Add Aquatic to the Characters creature type (eg Humanoid, Aquatic)

 

[the Jester]

IMonstrous Humanoids are also supposed to be proficient with simple weapons and with some armors, but honestly- if cetaceans in your game are as smart as humans, shouldn't they be coming up with weapons and armor to use anyway?

They have, despite their lack of hands. Some use their mouths to build harnesses of kelp or other strong fibers, and they make spear-like devices they strap to their heads.

Unless your dolphins are building cities and farming plankton, have a caste system to govern their people, and have made alliances with seahorses and whales to help them wage war against the sharks who are invading their lands, I wouldn't worry too much about cetacean intelligence.

How about alliances with aquatic elves and merfolk? And they don't build cities, they roam nomadically, but their favored class is paladin- they're the 'good guys of the seas.'

 

[trav_laney]

How about alliances with aquatic elves and merfolk? And they don't build cities, they roam nomadically, but their favored class is paladin- they're the 'good guys of the seas.'

I could be wrong, but I thought that one of the requirements for a "monster race" being able to advance by class, was that it had to have opposable thumbs.

If you are going to go with the "good guys of the sea" concept, I would suggest modifying a monster from the SRD. You know, take a creature that more or less fits the concept that you want to go with, and make slight tweaks to it. In this particular case, I would start with a couatl and make the following changes:

1. Change the name to Odonti (developed from the suborder name of the porpoise, "odontoceti") and change the written description of the creature as needed.

2. Give it the aquatic subtype.

3. Change its attacks and special attacks to fit the new body type (a dolphin's body doesn't constrict, and it doesn't have a poisonous bite, but it can headbutt and tail slap).

4. Fix the little things: for languages, replace Draconic with Aquan. A group of dolphins is called a "pod," not a flight. Etc., etc. All done!

Here's the finished result:

ODONTI
Large Outsider [Aquatic, Native]

Hit Dice:            9d8+18 (58 hp)
Initiative:          +7
Speed:               Swim 60 ft.
Armor Class:         21 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +9 natural), touch 12,
                       flat-footed 18
BAT/Grapple:         +9/+17
Attack:              Headbutt +12 melee (1d8+6)
Full Attack:         Headbutt +12 melee (1d8+6) and tail slap +8 melee (1d8+6)
Space/Reach:         10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:     Psionics, spells
Special Qualities:   Darkvision 60 ft., ethereal jaunt, telepathy 90 ft.
Saves:               Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +10
Abilities:           Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 19, Cha 17
Skills:              Concentration +14, Diplomacy +17, Jump +0,
                       Knowledge (any two) +15, Listen +16, Search +15,
                       Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +15 (+17 scrolls),
                       Spot +16, Survival +4 (+6 following tracks),
                       Tumble +15, Use Magic Device +15 (+17 scrolls)
Feats:               Dodge, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials(B), Hover,
                       Improved Initiative
Environment:         Warm aquatic
Organization:        Solitary, pair, or pod (3–6)
Challenge Rating:    10
Treasure:            Standard
Alignment:           Always lawful good
Advancement:         10–13 HD (Large); 14–27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment:    +7

A odonti resembles a large, particularly beautiful dolphin about 15 feet long,
with shimmering gold skin and sparkling eyes. It weighs about 1,800 pounds.

Odontis speak Celestial, Common, and Aquan, and also have the power
of telepathy (see below).

COMBAT
A odonti uses its detect thoughts ability on any creature that arouses its
suspicions. Since it is highly intelligent, a odonti usually casts spells
from a distance before closing. If more than one odonti is involved, they
discuss their strategy before a battle.

Psionics (Sp): At will—detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law,
detect thoughts (DC 15), invisibility, plane shift (DC 20), polymorph (self
only). Effective caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Spells: A odonti casts spells as a 9th-level sorcerer.
It can choose its spells known from the sorcerer list, the cleric list, and
from the lists for the Air, Good, and Law domains. The cleric spells and
domain spells are considered arcane spells for a odonti, meaning that the
creature does not need a divine focus to cast them.

Typical Spells Known (6/7/7/7/4; save DC 13 + spell level): 0—cure minor
wounds, daze, disrupt undead, light, obscuring mist, ray of frost, read magic,
resistance; 1st—endure elements, mage armor, protection from chaos, true
strike, wind wall; 2nd—cure moderate wounds, eagle’s splendor, scorching
ray, silence; 3rd—gaseous form, magic circle against evil, summon monster III;
4th— charm monster, freedom of movement.

Ethereal Jaunt (Su): This ability works like the ethereal jaunt spell
(caster level 16th).

Telepathy (Su): A odonti can communicate telepathically with any creature
within 90 feet that has an Intelligence score. The creature can respond to
the odonti if it wishes—no common language is needed.

Sure, it's not perfect (the spell list should probably be updated, and the CR might need adjusting since three of the couatl's special attacks were omitted), but it will do in a pinch for a DM who is in a hurry.

 

[el-remmen]

I don't understand why technological advancement and tool use has to be part of an intelligent society.

They can have a rich culture of art and song and stories and moral and legal codes, etc. . . all based on an oral tradition (or going with my psion idea, they could imbue crystals with projections of thoughts as a form of "written" record).

I have been using "dolphins are as smart as people" thing in my setting for years with no worries about their lack of cities or warcraft.

 

[nute]

My immediate response to the thread title is "Well, isn't that what Profession (sailor) and Profession (cooking) are for?"

 

[Tonguez]

I don't understand why technological advancement and tool use has to be part of an intelligent society.

They can have a rich culture of art and song and stories and moral and legal codes, etc. . . all based on an oral tradition (or going with my psion idea, they could imbue crystals with projections of thoughts as a form of "written" record).

I have been using "dolphins are as smart as people" thing in my setting for years with no worries about their lack of cities or warcraft.

I agree (and so did Douglas Adams)

“Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much... the wheel, New York, wars, and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely the dolphins believed themselves to be more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons.”

There is evidence of dolphins using tools/wearing cloths and unique vocalisations which some researchers think indicate that dolphins actually have names

IMC The Whale Song is the ambient song of the sea (and what yoiu hear when you put a shell to your ear), cetaceans sing into that ambient song and their songs (a history-map) become part of it