What to do About NAD Deficcency?

[keterys]

That would catch up the lowest NAD, but jet the highest one ahead by 4 points. If you get rid of the improved defenses feats (all of them, from both PH and PH2), I guess it wouldn't necessarily be too dire.

 

[Stalker0]

That would catch up the lowest NAD, but jet the highest one ahead by 4 points. If you get rid of the improved defenses feats (all of them, from both PH and PH2), I guess it wouldn't necessarily be too dire.

Actually my problem isn't taht the lowest NAD is hit all the time, its that the highest one does. A fighter shouldn't have a problem getting hit with will attacks all the time, but when he can't even take a fort attack more than 50% of the time something is off.

 

[keterys]

What level is your fighter? Does he have great fortitude or an item that improves Fortitude? Is he human?

Cause +4 would turn that 50% into 70% which is really about the upper bounds of where your missed chance should be... and an item and great fortitude would net you another +4 which would bring that to 90% missed. Human 95%. Etc.

 

[Stalker0]

What level is your fighter? Does he have great fortitude or an item that improves Fortitude? Is he human?

Cause +4 would turn that 50% into 70% which is really about the upper bounds of where your missed chance should be... and an item and great fortitude would net you another +4 which would bring that to 90% missed. Human 95%. Etc.

True, but as in your last post house rules may need to be balanced with other houserules. If you allow for a net bonus to NADs, it may be prudent to remove NAD boosting feats.

Just to back up some of my words I decided to run a quick test. I pulled up one of my characters from the char builder, an 11th level dragonborn paladin. He's a strength/charisma build, with no special feats or items to boost fort, but otherwise has a big strength and solid defenses. His Fort Defense is 25.

I ran an average of Fort Attacks for 11th level monsters and the attack was +14. That's exactly 50% attack rate on my guys Fort Defense, so the 50% hit rate on high NADs seem right on the money, at least at 11th.


Getting back to the discussion, I'm personally fine with raising weaker NADs as well, just stressing the point that I currently don't think higher NADs are so high they can't benefit for some of these houserules as well.

Also, I'm not a fan of more stat raises to account for defenses. My problem with that is your taking a hammer to the problem instead of a scalpel. Stats affect a lot more than defenses...skills, ability rolls, feats prereqs, etc.

If the problem people have is with defenses, then focus on defenses. Straight up bonuses to those defenses directly addresses that problem, without affecting the rest of the system at all. Its a more elegant way of addressing the issue imo.

 

[keterys]

True, but as in your last post house rules may need to be balanced with other houserules. If you allow for a net bonus to NADs, it may be prudent to remove NAD boosting feats.

Yeah, that's pretty much just my point. That it feels like the up to +6 to NADs you can get via feat, plus the up to +3 from items, are mostly shoddy bandaids, so as long as you take them out, you're probably fine.

Just don't give out +7 over 30 levels _and_ +6 via feats _and_ potentially +3 from items/masterwork... cause that'll just go over the top.

 

[Starfox]

Yeah, that's pretty much just my point. That it feels like the up to +6 to NADs you can get via feat, plus the up to +3 from items, are mostly shoddy bandaids, so as long as you take them out, you're probably fine.

Just don't give out +7 over 30 levels _and_ +6 via feats _and_ potentially +3 from items/masterwork... cause that'll just go over the top.

I'm not convinced this is a problem. It makes someone almost HAD immune. But there is still AC, and this guy really paid a lot for it.

 

[Neuroglyph]

My house rule is as follows:
+1 to F/R/W defenses at levels 5, 15, 25
+1 to one defense for which you have a class bonus at levels 11 and 21
No Paragon or Robust Defenses feats, no Epic Fort/Ref/Will feats
Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and the epic feats with special kickers are still available.

I think your math is solid, based upon the experiences of the characters in your campaign. For my own campaign I think the "+1 to F/R/W defenses at levels 5, 15, 25" is sufficient.

But looking through the Paragon Tier monsters, alot of the NAD attacks are just encounter powers. That means that your party is going to be subjected to an NAD attack one time per monster during a fight, and the remaining attacks will be against AC.

Obviously, some paragon monsters have NAD attacks on the recharge(5 6), and a few have them as at wills, but that's not common. While I agree that makes them threatening to a group, adding too many modifiers in seems like it would make it too easy to ignore those types of attacks.

I think if you feel the need to house rule the NADs a great deal, it might be due to the monsters you're throwing at the PCs. As DMs we can choose what to hit the PCs with, and you have the choice whether or not to drop a critter that attacks a weak NAD at will.

Personally, I thinkg it's easier to mod a monster and change an "at will" NAD attack to a "recharge X" or "encounter" than adding too many house rules to the characters.

 

[keterys]

I'm not convinced this is a problem. It makes someone almost HAD immune. But there is still AC, and this guy really paid a lot for it.

It's never a good idea to allow near immunity of this sort. And it's not paying a lot for it to spend 2 feats. (+2 to all, +4 to one)

 

[jester_gl]

After level 11, item (other than the neck) can also help some here. Some boots gives a bonus to Ref, some helm to Will and some Belt to For. Those bonus goes from +1 to +3. Simply adding this bonus to more of these (or all, like all heroic boots gives +1 ref, all paragon boots +2, etc.) can solve the problem.

Just to be sure, I made a level 30 controller (seeker just for fun). With +3 from boots and belt and +2 from helm to NAD, and Robust Defense somewhere near the end, his defenses are AC 42, Fort 37, Ref 47, Will 46.

There is a big glaring weak spot in 37 Fort, which could easily become a 41 with 1 more feat, which would make even the Tarasque requires an 8 to hit. That weak spot comes from the 12 Con by opposition to the 26 Dex and 30 Will.

I think for my next game I will be putting more NAD bonus on boots/head/belt, and possibly gives a +1 to a third stat. Now the only character with a real weak spot will be the one that boost the same def-stat twice, like the Str/Con barb.