What to do? Couple of questions that came up during a game

[Ferox4]

All the AoOs that players have taken in our game have been melee attacks - no trips, grapples or disarms. I suppose that's why I was surprised that an AoO could provoke an AoO. Now I know. Thanks.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Had a couple of questions that came up during the game earlier in the week.

1) Can an attack of opprtunity provoke an attack of opportunity? If so, how many attacks of opportunity can be made (assuming the one taking the attacks has combat reflexes)?
ex: The fighter moves through the ogres area of reach, provoking an attack of opportunity. The ogre reaches to grapple the fighter, which gives the fighter an attack of opportunity. The fighter attempts to trip the ogre, which could provoke another attack of opportunity.

The funny thing is, as you all probably know, is that the AoO happens BEFORE the action that provokes it, so in the example above (assuming its a valid one):

The fighter moves starts to move from 10' to 5' from the ogre. Before the Fighter can move, the Ogre get an AoO, which he uses to initiate a grapple, but wait! that Provokes an AoO from the fighter, who's still 10' away, and thus can't reach the Ogre...

AR

 

[Hypersmurf]

The fighter moves starts to move from 10' to 5' from the ogre. Before the Fighter can move, the Ogre get an AoO, which he uses to initiate a grapple, but wait! that Provokes an AoO from the fighter, who's still 10' away, and thus can't reach the Ogre...

The ogre doesn't provoke an AoO for initiating the grapple, because he's not "taking certain actions in a threatened square".

He's taking a certain action outside a threatened square.

-Hyp.

 

[Liquidsabre]

The ogre doesn't provoke an AoO for initiating the grapple, because he's not "taking certain actions in a threatened square".

He's taking a certain action outside a threatened square.

-Hyp.

The Ogre still provokes an AoO. It comes up in the Grapple rules in 3.5 where it explicitedly states:

Step 1: Provoke AoO (unless using Imp. Grapple)

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Ogre still provokes an AoO. It comes up in the Grapple rules in 3.5 where it explicitedly states:

Step 1: Provoke AoO (unless using Imp. Grapple)

It says the same thing for disarm. But if you're not threatened, you can't provoke an AoO.

And on a grapple, you don't move into the opponent's square until after the AoO step has already gone past, so there isn't even that excuse.

-Hyp.

 

[Liquidsabre]

The point is however that it isn't an "action within a threatened space" that provokes the AoO but that the special attack action itself does, negating the need for a threatened space.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The point is however that it isn't an "action within a threatened space" that provokes the AoO but that the special attack action itself does, negating the need for a threatened space.

Uh... most actions that provoke AoOs state they do.

"Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity."
"Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed."
"Activating a spell completion item is the equivalent of casting a spell. It requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity."

Nevertheless, "This action provokes an AoO" only actually does so if you perform that action while in a threatened space.

Just like grapple or disarm.

"Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square."

Since the AoO you provoke for Grappling isn't "moving out of a threatened square", it must be "performing an action within a threatened square".

No threat - no provoke.

-Hyp.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

But the Ogre actually HAS to reach within the Fighter's Threatened space (hell, the Ogre has to GRAB the Fighter), and the AoO, logically (of course when strict abstract rules are applied, loigc usually flies outside the window), is taken against the Ogre's outstretched arm. "oh no you don't Mr. Ogre!"

I understand that by a strict reading of the rules, the Ogre shouldn't provoke and AoO since no one is threatening him.

AR

 

[Hypersmurf]

But the Ogre actually HAS to reach within the Fighter's Threatened space...

The ogre however, is still in his own space, and so he's not taking an action in a threatened space.

Extrapolating from a ruling on touch spells in the 3E Main FAQ would potentially allow a Readied Action on the fighter's part to strike the ogre's arm and deal him damage... but the ogre isn't provoking an AoO. (And a Readied Action wouldn't disrupt the grapple attempt the way an AoO would.)

-Hyp.

 

[Liquidsabre]

I understand that by a strict reading of the rules, the Ogre shouldn't provoke and AoO since no one is threatening him.
AR

This as Hyper has already done, is an incorrect assumption. First, ignore the section on Provoking AoO, there is no need for it in this situation. Second read the Grapple section, it says:

Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are traying to grapple.

Nevertheless, "This action provokes an AoO" only actually does so if you perform that action while in a threatened space.

Just like grapple or disarm.

This is the incorrect assumption I was speaking of Hyper. Normally a AoO is only provoked by two ways as we know. Moving out of threatened squares or performing certain actions within a threatened square. The actions that do and do not provoke are listed in Table 8-2. Go back a preuse this list and you will not find grapple among them. Why? Because it is not an action that "may" provoke but "does" provoke as it directly states in the text, irregardless of whether in a threatened space or not.

Though an argument may be made for threatened space since the grappler is irrefuatbly entering their target's square to touch them.