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What to do with Spontaneous Casters

Dannyalcatraz said:
Not quite- even those 2 spells they get will still have to be designed or discovered.*

I mean, they're going to be studying magic through trial and error, as well as scraps and bits of scrolls & tomes...no free rides.

The 2 spells Wizards get each level aren't "free rides", they're a result of personal research that the character is assumed to have done between levels. They don't just magically appear in the character's spellbook. They're part of his own experimentation and learning.

Dannyalcatraz said:
*In all honesty, though, I've been toying with the idea of each Wizard starting off with a spellbook with 9 levels of spells in them (Cantrips counting as 1/3rd of a spell)- player's choice- to "sweeten the pot." My players are generally ultraconservative and may balk at the idea of having to design their own spells.

Well, whatever apocolypse happened on your world, there are likely fragments of knowledge left behind. Researching one's own spells is not the only option in a low magic world. The search for lost knowledge could be the source of many adventures in your campaign. Maybe the players hear of the ruins of a lost city of magic, and go there to try and find its secrets. Maybe they hear rumors of a secret cabal of spellcasters that have passed down many secrets of the past, and they could try to "persuade" them to part with their knowledge. The possibilities are endless, and they can give your players goal and motivations beyond just gaining money and exp.
 

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You're actually on the right track:

Essentially, Illithids from the far future (see Lords of Madness) travel back in time in order to speed up their race's ascendance to ultimate power. To do so, they perturb a planet near the game-world's star system's asteroid belt, generating a periodic rain of smallish asteroids to devastate the surface- Starfall. The heroes of the world rise to help out, but ultimately are overwhelmed.

Surface civilization collapses, and most books (of all kinds) wind up getting used as fuel...those that survive the Starfall, that is. Civilizations of the Underdark fare somewhat better, but faced with raids by displaced surface dwellers, have also have their problems.

In the entire world, what scrolls and tomes remain intact are largely in the hands of the most isolated of Underdark spellcasters- everything else is scraps. There are no schools of wizardry. No mentors survived.

***

So, at the time of the PCs, most forms of writing are rare- most PCs & NPCs will be illiterate. Would-be spellcasters are essentially rebuilding the knowledge of the workings of magic from the ground up- there are still no known teachers.

I've been polling my would-be players: about a third like the sound of designing 100% of their own spells (with the possible exception of their 9 spell-levels of spells), a third would prefer the spellcraft system, and the others are noncomittal.

When I say spells received from leveling are not free, what I'm saying is that since the whole system is predicated on a combination of piecing together odd scraps of scrolls & tomes with personal research filling in the gaps, I can't see a rationale for giving the PCs a pass and merely pick out a few choice spells. While systematic, the results are neccessarily haphazard and a direct outgrowth of the campaign's background. Perhaps despite all his research, Willie Wizard just can't fill in the missing pieces of the Magic Missile spell he's been kicking around for years. OTOH, perhaps he figures out a spell from the Spell Compendium or the Book of All Spells that he proves to be quite adept at wielding... Or perhaps next level he'll have that flash of insight that unlocks that spell for him.

He'll get 2 spells, all right...they just may not be the 2 he wanted most.

Part of my rationale for doing this is my players themselves.

I know that despite all of the campaign background reasons that would logically constrain & alter PC spell choices, the players who most often play spellcasters would choose the same spells they always do (and you know which ones those would be) unless there was a mechanical reason why they couldn't. NPCs built to fit the campaign would perforce be at a disadvantage.

Thus, I have to minimize the number of PHB spells they can simply choose "off the rack."

Doing so at every step of the way will force them to have spell lists that actually reflect the level of magic in the game world, learn to use different spells, and possibly even force them to share the knowledge they gain (most players in this group hoard their spells- few allow spell transcriptions of any kind for any reason).
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
I'm designing a campaign in which surface civilization has largely collapsed, and the nature of the collapse will result in the destruction of most written materials (along with a lot of other things).

Because of this, spellcasters who must research spells- Wizards & Wu Jen- will be forced to work from first principles, and design their own spells. I have 2 methods I'm considering (not neccessarily exclusive): spell design from the ground up similar to True Sorcery or working with downscaled Spellseeds, or having PCs do a Spellcraft check vs a DC to learn a spell- reflecting researching through fragments of magical writings to piece together lost spells.

However, spontaneous casters don't research their spells. The absence of most of these tomes and scrolls won't affect them- they just know their spells.

How can I restore the balance and still remain true to the campaign setting?

Change the reason behind spontaneous casters; instead of innate magic from dragon ancestry, make it a infused magic. A sorcerer learns a spell and inscribes it as a tattoo on her body, enabling her to use her personal reserves to cast it. This way each spell would need to be researched from somewhere.

Bards on the other hand, have to learn each spell/song by studying the workings of magic and music until they have memorized it flawlessly and with perfect pitch.

Slight change in origin of power = harmony with the campaign.

DC
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
...Because of this, spellcasters who must research spells- Wizards & Wu Jen- will be forced to work from first principles, and design their own spells. I have 2 methods I'm considering (not neccessarily exclusive): spell design from the ground up similar to True Sorcery or working with downscaled Spellseeds, or having PCs do a Spellcraft check vs a DC to learn a spell- reflecting researching through fragments of magical writings to piece together lost spells...
If you want to build spells from the ground up I would highly recommend Elements of Magic: Revised. You can find a link to it on my bookshelf if interested.

Good Gaming,
William Holder
 

I would second the notion that you don't try an balance the classes. Let the notion stand that wizards are at a marked disadvantage. Perhaps their main NPC would be a wizard who, lacking the power of his predecessors, employs the PCs to go recover some for him.

Sounds like a really cool way to build a world from the dirt up. Good luck.

Later!
 

Thanks for all the help, everyone!

A question about Elements of Magic: How does it compare to WotC's Spellseeds and True Sorcery?

I ask because the Spellseeds system would work, but the only version of it I've seen deals only with Epic spells (AFAIK), and True Sorcery doesn't follow the standard class magic levels- you know, 9 levels + cantrips- a potential pitfall.
 
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Dannyalcatraz said:
Thanks for all the help, everyone!

A question about Elements of Magic: How does it compare to WotC's Spellseeds and True Sorcery?

I ask because the Spellseeds system would work, but the only version of it I've seen deals only with Epic spells (AFAIK), and True Sorcery doesn't follow the standard class magic levels- you know, 9 levels + cantrips- a potential pitfall.
Sorry for the delay I was out of town...

Anywho, Elements of Magic breaks magic down to it's base function. Verb + Noun is how all spells are built.

If you want to cast a direct damage spell you can... Evoke (Fire) this simple spell allows the user to define magic as a Fireball, Fire Blast, Charge a stone with Fire to explode later or any thing else you can think of... provided you pay for the additional cost for area and range.

If you want to heal your wounds or your allies use Heal (Life)... or if you want to be more specific Heal (Humanoid).

If you want to teleport a simple Move (Space) can wisk you out of combat and a more powerful version could send you and your allies to another plane.

In using Elements of Magic there is no Arcane or Divine or even Psionic distinction there is only magic and what is does. If you know the appropriate list you can do anything.

Now for your hard question how does it compare to WotC Magic system... if anything the power level of a Mage in this system is a bit behind the Wizard and about on par with the Psion. However, you have far more flexablitiy in this system which in my opinion is worth the trade off in power.

Vancian magic is out the window... you no longer have spell slots 0-9. Though there is a counter balance to this in the form of Signature Spells. Every Mage can know a number of Signature Spells they could normally cast and cast those spells as Standard actions. All other spells including those 'built on the fly' take two rounds to cast. An important thing to keep in mind is you can not spend more MP on a Spell than your caster level. If you follow that one rule you will see virtually no power creep.

Be sure to check out the Forum under EN Publishing here at EN World if you have any other questions.

Good gaming,
William Holder
 

Sounds like a product that I wouldn't mind having, even if I couldn't convince my current group to use it!

Thanks for the info.
 

Okay, how about a compromise? At any level that a wizard would normally gain spells, their choices are:
  • You choose one spell for them of the highest level they can cast
  • They choose one spell one level lower than the highest level they can cast
  • They choose two spells two levels lower than the highest level they can cast

... For divine casters, base their casting off of the Archivist(Heroes of Horror), but limited to just their own spell list. (up to you whether you want the spellcasting to be based off of 1 or 2 stats) Also give them the same choice as wizards for the addition of regular spells per level. I guess clerics would still start off with their domain spells; not sure how to balance other divine spellcasters against that. For spontaneous arcane casters, how about an idea from a different thread?
ed209uardo said:
If I'm understanding your post correctly, then I agree; using the casting mechanic of the Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine) of choosing a limited number of spells per day to cast spontaneously, but learning spells as a wizard. I would be tempted, though, to lower the amount of spells per day he could choose, to balance against the larger spell list he can choose from, again along the lines of the Spirit Shaman.

... and, of course, give them the same choice as wizards for their regular spells per level...
 


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