What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[AnotherGuy]

I mean, thats SURELY what we will find with some quick google/twitter searches right?

I don't even have to go that far - I could just go to my table. And I can confirm what you said rings true for my player and his friend who runs a table himself.

 

[Scribe]

I don't even have to go that far - I could just go to my table. And I can confirm what you said rings true for my player and his friend who runs a table himself.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mod Note:

If y’all could dial back the snark and jabs, that’d be great.

 

[Faolyn]

As with many of our past discussions, its not that there is a shift, its that there is the removal of what there was before, instead of it being 'in addition'.

Which is fine, but I somehow doubt that lesbians, or gay men, are a monolith who are all in favour of the safe and gentle approach being taken these days, and its just seemingly the older white straight guys who are into things now 'unacceptable'?

I mean, thats SURELY what we will find with some quick google/twitter searches right?

lol

OK, first off, the straight white guys have had dominance for literally hundreds of years so it's time to let other people get a chance get written for. And secondly, there's still tons of stuff out there for the straight white guys. The stuff for other people is, in fact, being written "in addition" to the stuff for the straight white guys. The fact that we're getting equal treatment doesn't mean that you're getting lesser treatment.

And thirdly, nothing is being removed. To go back to Dark Sun, all the older books are still there, slavery and all. You can buy them online. The actual pdf of the original boxed set is on sale for $7 on DM's Guild. It's just that WotC is choosing to not put out anything for it for 5e--like they have chosen to not print new Birthright or Mystara or Council of Wyrms or Nentir Vale for 5e.

 

[Lanefan]

Your entire argument is "Where does it end?", when we can just say "Well, it ends here for the moment". These hyperbolic slippery slopes are just not honest because they assume that this can't be stopped, that all things must and will be judged the same way each time.

It's that "for the moment" clause that raises red flags about slippery slopes and makes people curious about where things might ultimately end.

 

[Scribe]

OK, first off, the straight white guys have had dominance for literally hundreds of years so it's time to let other people get a chance get written for. And secondly, there's still tons of stuff out there for the straight white guys. The stuff for other people is, in fact, being written "in addition" to the stuff for the straight white guys. The fact that we're getting equal treatment doesn't mean that you're getting lesser treatment.

And thirdly, nothing is being removed. To go back to Dark Sun, all the older books are still there, slavery and all. You can buy them online. The actual pdf of the original boxed set is on sale for $7 on DM's Guild. It's just that WotC is choosing to not put out anything for it for 5e--like they have chosen to not print new Birthright or Mystara or Council of Wyrms or Nentir Vale for 5e.

lol so you are doubling down on it being a 'straight white guy' thing?

Fair enough.

 

[ilgatto]

(...)
To be entirely fair, there were a couple of Dragon Magazine articles for 2e.
(...)

Drat.

Ninja'd.

Charles R. Saunders, Out of Africa. Supernatural Creatures from the Dark Continent, in: Dragon 122 (TSR, 1987)

Roger E. Moore, Gaming in the Dark Continent, in: Dragon 122 (TSR, 1987)

Michael John Wybo II, Mythic Races of Africa, in: Dragon 202 (TSR, 1994)

 

[Umbran]

Yeah hard disagree on this attempt to shut down this line of questioning with the so often used "whataboutism" technique when no good reply seems to exist.

I cannot depend my view on the logic on what you personally choose to accept as a "good" reply.

Interestingly, though, I did just give a reply to the point, but in speaking to someone else. To wit, while murder and slavery are both bad, from a standpoint of US history and current culture they are not really equivalent. In effect, Paizo and WotC have stepped back from apples, and you are saying, "But oranges!"

 

[Alzrius]

To be entirely fair, there were a couple of Dragon Magazine articles for 2e.

Which actually just shows that TSR knew that Mythic Africa was a definite possibility that at least some people were interested in, but they never expanded upon it. Not even with a green leatherette book. Because we needed both Charlemagne and the Crusades, but not Africa.

Yeah, that was a huge missed opportunity on their part. They could have gone so much further with those than they did. Sub-Saharan Africa. Aboriginal Australia. Oceania. So much was left on the metaphorical table.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm not saying they are stupid at all. Where am I saying they are stupid?

I am 100% saying they are making (for several years now) a softer, gentler, kid friend game, and art style, and seeking to avoid controversy at all costs.

Thats not the same as saying they are stupid.

(Well ok, their OGL fiasco was really stupid, but thats not what we are discussing.)

They are making their product softer. They feel this is the best path to $$$. We agree? Great.

What's funny is this post - had this forum existed at the time - could be straight from 1991, as a reaction to 2e.

The more things change....

 

[Alzrius]

Drat.

Ninja'd.

Charles R. Saunders, Out of Africa. Supernatural Creatures from the Dark Continent, in: Dragon 122 (TSR, 1987)

Roger E. Moore, Gaming in the Dark Continent, in: Dragon 122 (TSR, 1987)

Michael John Wybo II, Mythic Races of Africa, in: Dragon 202 (TSR, 1994)

There were a couple others as well. To cut-and-paste from the DragonDex:

Africa:
Armor "Arms & Armor of Africa" Michael J. Varhola 189(20) D&D2
Clerics of "Priests of Africa, The" Michael John Wybo II 209(16) D&D2
Creatures of "Gaming the Dark Continent" Roger E. Moore 122(27) D&D1
"Out of Africa" Charles R. Saunders 122(22) D&D1
Game adaptation "Dark Continent, The" David Howery 189(10) D&D2
Gods and religions "African Genesis, A" Brady English 191(32) D&D2
"Deities of Africa, The" Michael John Wybo II 215(48) D&D2
"Mythos of Africa in Dungeons & Dragons" Jerome Arkenberg 27(39) OD&D
Races, mythic "Mythic Races of Africa" Michael John Wybo II 202(46) D&D2
Warrior kits "Real Warriors Ride Elephants" Michael John Wybo II 195(26) D&D2
Weapons "Arms & Armor of Africa" Michael J. Varhola 189(20) D&D2
Wizard kits "Magic From the Gods" Michael John Wybo II 200(14) D&D2

 

[Scribe]

What's funny is this post - had this forum existed at the time - could be straight from 1991, as a reaction to 2e.

The more things change....

The steady march of progress (??) lol

 

[Lanefan]

To wit, while murder and slavery are both bad, from a standpoint of US history and current culture they are not really equivalent.

As a non-American my first thought here is why should the rest of the world be beholden to US history and current culture?

 

[ilgatto]

There were a couple others as well. To cut-and-paste from the DragonDex:

Double drat!

I knew there was one of those early "Mythos' things in an early Dragon but couldn't remember which one.

 

[Hussar]

It seems to me that we're talking about slavery as an issue because of the recent Dark Sun kerfuffle. It is certainly not the only issue that people find problematic: virtually any feature of history that people find problematic has a group that wants to remove it from gaming. If you look at pretty much any polarizing political issue, there are people who want to remove it from being fair play to have as a part of gaming. Enworld has a ban on politics still (I think so, right?) so I'm not going to bring them up but ... take a moment to think about political controversies and then ask "what form would they take in a fantasy universe," and then you'll have your answer about what's next. And not even what's next: what else is being removed right now.

I don't think anyone is saying that every campaign needs to focus on slavery, it's just a specific recent example that applies to topics that some thing should be removed from gaming. And it's something that's part of campaigns for characters to fight against. To make positive change in the world by getting rid of.

Can't we just get rid of this one bad thing? Of course we can, but we all know that slavery is one of many horrible things that exist in fantasy. This whole discussion makes me want to ask "why is murder okay to have in fantasy, when it affects so many people in the real world?" The answer is simple: you have things like murder in a fantasy game as something bad happening that you have to stop or somehow make right. That's the same answer for any controversial bad thing in an RPG: it's something bad guys do and we can make it better in the game world.

Because murder is equal opportunity?

 

[SteveC]

Nothing to see here, move along. Not going to go there.

 

[Cadence]

As a non-American my first thought here is why should the rest of the world be beholden to US history and current culture?

If you can get WotC to move or another country to publish a contender...

 

[mythago]

Charles R. Saunders, Out of Africa. Supernatural Creatures from the Dark Continent, in: Dragon 122 (TSR, 1987)

Side note: while I don't recall if this was mentioned in the Dragon article, Charles R. Saunders also wrote a swords and sorcery series, Imaro, which is a lot of fun. The characters are more or less archetypes but the setting is very rich, and, well, swords and sorcery.

 

[Scribe]

If you can get WotC to move or another country to publish a contender...

It wouldnt matter. Largest market = ?

Gotta be the US.

 

[Hussar]

You get villains who are truly bad guys. No one is going to be on their side. There's a surprisingly short list of groups you can put on that list at the moment.

Except that’s not true.

Most of the fantasy society is on their side. Like virtually everyone in that society is on their side.