What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Ruin Explorer]

Oddly perhaps, queer RPGs are one of the places people seem fine with sexual content in an RPG. Thirsty Sword Lesbians fine, Horny Bards bad. Monsterhearts, good; straight fighter hooking up with the barmaid, bad.

Perhaps because in order to be queer content, it has to allow for expressing sexuality. If you don't express sexuality then it is assumed everyone is straight, in an oddly fantasy asexual world.

That is true, but it's not good thing, including not for queer people.

And it's worth noting there are even some LGBTQ+/queer people, largely in that "22-y/o minor" category who kind of want to try and make it so even queer RPGs and the like don't allow any expression of sexuality beyond, like maybe stating your orientation on the character sheet, which is kind of wild.

I do see some of the factors that have lead here - not least the fact that it's very easy for stuff to be creepy or cringe, and indeed, a ton of "RPG Horror Stories" involve precisely that kind of expression of sexuality - and many tables just don't have much of it, or even none - so there hasn't been much resistance to it gradually being pushed out (though I feel like stuff like Apocalypse World and so on does resist it - but that's 10+ years old at this point). And we all love to mock ol' Ed Greenwood and his kind of '70s free love take on the FR, because it's pretty funny, but at the same time I respect him for actually acknowledging that these are humans, not some strange sexless beings.

 

[Gradine]

Yeah and unfortunately it's coming at art from both sides of the political spectrum. On one side, it's being used as a tool to try and relitigate the LGBTQ+ debate (which was basically over, for the most part)

Boy, if only that were actually true

 

[Irlo]

How is this different from sitting down at a table of strangers to play a heist scenario that you didn't write and are told to run/play if you want to participate? If you don't like something, you aren't going to want to have to play it.

This might help explain the depth of difference between personal preferences in types of gaming and the unwelcoming message sent by the inclusion of slavery in gaming materials.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The article you post really isn't about "sexy art", though. The examples they mention can be sexy, but largely speaking it's about the sexlessness of things, that there just isn't sex in mainstream movies anymore when it used to be incredibly prevalent. I think the example of Sarah Connor and Kyle Reese as great examples being used: they aren't in skimpy outfits, but the act of having sex helps humanize them and help make them feel like relatable adults. That's why Marvel films feel so weird: no one seemingly entertains romance, no one feels sexy despite being beautiful. But to do these things, you don't need what people are referring to as "erotic art" necessarily, and erotic art won't necessarily do it right, either.

And I think that also something that is a bit different between RPGs and movies: you're much more deeply involved in an RPG than you are as a spectator in a movie. Watching someone have in a movie make love is very different than trying to have romantic scenarios at the tabletop. The interaction makes things different for the player, and definitely for women who actually want to play the game.

I feel like you're really working extremely hard here to try and make a differentiation to rationalize your own personal biases, rather than making a genuine argument.

"Sexy art" doesn't mean actively erotic art, i.e. pornography or the borderline of it, either - the sexlessness absolutely is entering into fantasy art in the West, and indeed it's been an increasing part of things for a decade, easy, maybe two. You have a lot of people who are beautiful, but they're making a huge effort not to be hot. God forbid anyone be hot. But you trying to isolate this as "erotic art" is representative of the problem. It's a continuum, a spectrum, not an either/or situation.

And the deeply involved thing is 100% irrelevant to this argument re: art, not sure why you're even bringing it up except to try and move on from a debate where your position doesn't make much sense.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Boy, if only that were actually true

I get what you're saying, but it was so much closer to being shut down like, 8 years ago, than it is now. In the UK, which admittedly used to be more advanced than the US on this kind of thing (and still is on the LGB side of things, just not the TQ+ anymore, entirely thanks to JK Rowling in the UK), it was almost entirely shut down. Even 4 years ago it was a hell of a lot quieter, and things were just improving in literally most places in the West, including the US and UK. There was still progress to be made but pushback was getting weaker and weaker. That started to change with some drastic changes in tactics and funding approaches from literally billionaire bigots (and I'm not even talking about JKR there though if the shoe fits), but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Scribe]

That is true, but it's not good thing, including not for queer people.

And it's worth noting there are even some LGBTQ+/queer people, largely in that "22-y/o minor" category who kind of want to try and make it so even queer RPGs and the like don't allow any expression of sexuality beyond, like maybe stating your orientation on the character sheet, which is kind of wild.

I do see some of the factors that have lead here - not least the fact that it's very easy for stuff to be creepy or cringe, and indeed, a ton of "RPG Horror Stories" involve precisely that kind of expression of sexuality - and many tables just don't have much of it, or even none - so there hasn't been much resistance to it gradually being pushed out (though I feel like stuff like Apocalypse World and so on does resist it - but that's 10+ years old at this point). And we all love to mock ol' Ed Greenwood and his kind of '70s free love take on the FR, because it's pretty funny, but at the same time I respect him for actually acknowledging that these are humans, not some strange sexless beings.

The weird thing, is nobody is asking for books to be crammed to the brim with innuendo, lewd art, or anything of the like. One of the few people I have blocked here cannot seem to help himself from posting that stuff and it IS largely inappropriate.

However that is not what is being asked or looked for, not in the slightest.

What is being stated is "Maybe what you think is a fact, isnt remotely the case, and actually Conan is fine, and so would a female Conan be fine."

Instead we get mental gymnastics, statements of opinion as objective fact, and denial of a shift that is weirdly familiar to a moral panic, over an art direction that is nearly dead amongst multiple other points of discussion, and certainly is dead when one looks at the gorilla in the room that is Wizards. Which is the equivalent of Disney, and turning "Action Hero's into Action Figures." to paraphrase the article linked is exactly what they are doing to RPGs.

Its just such a weird time, when we have all these different forces/views/groups all pulling and pushing with or against the tide, sometimes in conflict, sometimes agreeing, but seemingly unwilling, or unable, to actually step back and see the forest for the trees and they call it progress.

Going to be wild when the wheel turns.

 

[Hussar]

But if the final image is similar can not the viewer, see what they want to see in it.

A straight man viewing Beyonce sees a sexual woman, a woman seeing a picture seeing like the midriff exposed Pathfinder sorcerers sees a fierce, idealised fantasy heroine.

However, while taking two things in isolation may make them seem similar, there is a bigger picture.

When ALL the sexy pictures are 100% semi-naked women and all directed at men, there’s a problem. For every Beyoncé there is an Ed Sheeran.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Going to be wild when the wheel turns.

Yes, and it will turn. Younger Millennials and Gen Z will probably have kids who absolutely loathe the sexless, plastic-y, MCU Funko Pop world their parents and various corporations trying to play it super-safe created. Older Millennials who already loathe that stuff will become crotchety but witty elders about it.

 

[Scribe]

Yes, and it will turn. Younger Millennials and Gen Z will probably have kids who absolutely loathe the sexless, plastic-y, MCU Funko Pop world their parents and various corporations trying to play it super-safe created. Older Millennials who already loathe that stuff will become crotchety but witty elders about it.

Thats actually it. The Action Heros (think of McClane walking on glass in Die Hard, how human he looked and must have felt) vs the absolute sexless plastic, false version of Action Figures we get now. Thats exactly it. Everything is safe, bubble wrapped, fake, plastic, and unquestionably less 'human'.

Its the uncanny valley thing I think for me at this point, and its already happened.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

However, while taking two things in isolation may make them seem similar, there is a bigger picture.

When ALL the sexy pictures are 100% semi-naked women and all directed at men, there’s a problem. For every Beyoncé there is an Ed Sheeran.

100% agree.

This is part of what the original desexualization of art, films, TV and so on was trying to address - but instead of making so everyone had hot people, anyone could be sexy and so on, they made it so no-one did, and no-one was (except in a sort of repressed way), because that played better with certain groups, and didn't, at that time, create any red flags for more open-minded groups (well, it did for me, but I like Egon Schiele so what do I know? I'm taking the piss out of myself here, not suggesting we have Schiele-style art in RPGs btw lol).

My position is, if an RPG is mostly aimed at adults, and aims to present a corporeal rather than ethereal world, there should probably be room for "sexy" (though not necessarily "erotic") art. Be room is not the same as requiring, to be clear. There will times and places when that doesn't make sense, and times when it super does, but just generally making everything sexless and making everyone look like they're clean and perfect and have never smelled a day in their life and so on is a bit... pathetic. Corporate. Banal.