Pathfinder 1E "What were they thinking?!" For when the number's just don't add up.

[Summer-Knight925]

Now I need to start this off by saying the event of which I am explaining is both my fault and an element of the Pathfinder Corebook's fault, which is odd to blame a book, but just hang on there for a moment.

So the party is 7th level, in the group is an Arcane Trickster (Rogue/Wizard) who is currently sporting an Armor Class of 30+.

How?
Ring of Protection +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Dodge
High Dex
And oh yes, a suit of Celestial Armor.

For those of you not familiar, Celestial Armor is a suit of +3 Chainmail that allows the wearer to fly 1/day, as well as us a max dex of +8.

Which means it is awesome armor, as it is, and as it should be.

My complaint is not in the armor itself, but the rules for the creation.

Sure it costs 11,000+ Gold Piece to make alone, but with only a Caster Level of 5 required, something just doesn't add up.

In order to make a suit of +3 armor, you need to be at least 9th level (if my memory serves correctly).
UNLESS you can cast fly and are of good alignment, in which case you can just make a suit of Celestial Armor at 5th.

it just doesn't add up.

What other magic items do this? I am sure there are many.

Furthermore, is there any way to rationalize why it is Caster Level 5th, and to do so within the magic item creation rules.


My GM house ruling is to up the Caster Level to 9th, and require a special item, and "Angel Feather" (really any feather from a good outsider will do). I do this with many special weapons and armor, such as a Holy Avenger needing to be given to the wielder in a ceremony where a good outsider (powerful and suiting for the character wielding it) blesses it and delivers it to the character. It seems insane, sure, and going the extra mile can and is annoying, but I do it for reasons other than to annoy my players.


So in conclusion, what were they thinking making Celestial Armor only need a CL 5?!?!?!?!?!

 

[billd91]

My complaint is not in the armor itself, but the rules for the creation.

Sure it costs 11,000+ Gold Piece to make alone, but with only a Caster Level of 5 required, something just doesn't add up.

In order to make a suit of +3 armor, you need to be at least 9th level (if my memory serves correctly).
UNLESS you can cast fly and are of good alignment, in which case you can just make a suit of Celestial Armor at 5th.

it just doesn't add up.

What other magic items do this? I am sure there are many.

Furthermore, is there any way to rationalize why it is Caster Level 5th, and to do so within the magic item creation rules.


My GM house ruling is to up the Caster Level to 9th, and require a special item, and "Angel Feather" (really any feather from a good outsider will do). I do this with many special weapons and armor, such as a Holy Avenger needing to be given to the wielder in a ceremony where a good outsider (powerful and suiting for the character wielding it) blesses it and delivers it to the character. It seems insane, sure, and going the extra mile can and is annoying, but I do it for reasons other than to annoy my players.


So in conclusion, what were they thinking making Celestial Armor only need a CL 5?!?!?!?!?!

Note - that's the caster level of the typical celestial armor found. It is not actually a listed prerequisite for creating the armor. That armor, even with a caster level of 5, still requires a 9th level caster to create the +3 bonus. Level requirements for feats come with the feat rules and don't have a direct relationship with the caster level of the item.

Note also magic rings. The ring of invisibility has a caster level of 3 - but the Forge Ring feat requires caster level 7. So, the character making the ring needs to be at least 7th level though the typical ring is caster level 3.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

The caster level of a magic item is NOT the level a caster needs to be to make it.

Consider the following crafted items (info toward the bottom of each block of text):

Living Wall- Creator must be caster level 8, item is CL 12th.
Clockwork Steed- Creator must be caster level 12, item is CL 12th.
Blood Golem- Creator must be caster level 12, item is CL 7th.

The caster level of a magic item is supplied for the math when interacting with the spell effects of the magic item, such as a Dispel Magic or Detect Magic spell. It is a measure of how magically powerful the item and/or it's effects are.

For example, if your player is under the Fly effect of your Celestial Armor, and a enemy caster wants to bring him crashing to the ground with a targeted Dispel, the enemy caster would make the dispel check (1d20 + the enemy caster's caster level) against the magic item (DC = 11 + spell's caster level, in this case, 11 + 5) to determine if your player falls to a grizzly death.

To detect the strength of the aura of the Celestial Armor with a Detect Magic, you'd make a Knowledge (Arcana) check vs DC 15 + spell level, in this case, DC = 15 + 5, to determine the school of magic (in this case, Transmutation), and then can possibly identify it's properties with a Spellcraft check.

"Hey guys, I think this armor I found lets you fly!"

...etc.

 

[GMMichael]

So in conclusion, what were they thinking making Celestial Armor only need a CL 5?!?!?!?!?!

I believe the CL thing has been properly addressed.

What they were thinking was, "let's not playtest this one as thoroughly as the core rules. We have a deadline coming up."

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Now I need to start this off by saying the event of which I am explaining is both my fault and an element of the Pathfinder Corebook's fault, which is odd to blame a book, but just hang on there for a moment.

So the party is 7th level, in the group is an Arcane Trickster (Rogue/Wizard) who is currently sporting an Armor Class of 30+.

How?
Ring of Protection +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Dodge
High Dex
And oh yes, a suit of Celestial Armor.

For those of you not familiar, Celestial Armor is a suit of +3 Chainmail that allows the wearer to fly 1/day, as well as us a max dex of +8.

Which means it is awesome armor, as it is, and as it should be.

My complaint is not in the armor itself, but the rules for the creation.

Sure it costs 11,000+ Gold Piece to make alone, but with only a Caster Level of 5 required, something just doesn't add up.

In order to make a suit of +3 armor, you need to be at least 9th level (if my memory serves correctly).
UNLESS you can cast fly and are of good alignment, in which case you can just make a suit of Celestial Armor at 5th.

I don't think the character is reasonable. A 7th-level PC starts with 23,500 gp, and should have 33,000 gp at 8th-level. I'm presuming they started at lower level and reached 7th-level; still, it seems the DM is giving out too much cash.

The ring and amulet each cost 8,000 gp, and together that's more than half the PC's wealth. Add on the celestial armor, 22,400 gp, and you're looking at over 30,000 gp. This PC spent nearly all their money just on AC, and either doesn't spend money on stat-boosting items, offensive magic items, a Cloak of Resistance and so forth, or has too much money and can keep up in those other areas.

Put 'em on a starvation diet. Cut treasure for a while, throw some spellcasters, and keep hinting at Cloaks of Resistance. And/or use monsters with DR, and suggest buying magic items. Magic shops will happily buy your "unwanted" gear and sell you stuff you actually need.

I've seen players run scared and try to crank defenses unreasonably. You may need to talk to this player about that.

 

[Jester David]

I believe the CL thing has been properly addressed.

What they were thinking was, "let's not playtest this one as thoroughly as the core rules. We have a deadline coming up."

Neither WotC nor Pazio playtest splatbook content such as builds/archetypes, magic items, feats, etc. Those are just eyeballed for balance and let loose.

 

[Minicol]

just give all of your monsters true strike as a swift action, and AC 30 is no longer a problem.

Templates are your solution, if you need to rationalize that.

 

[Dragonsbane]

I find giving monsters an edge that eliminates a player's abilities doesn't work, especially if the one player is the only one hitting that AC

I have a easy fix for my campaigns that has worked a while now:
1) double the gp value of all items
2) make sure not to hand out more item value that the Core Rulebook says.

In this way, players get about 50% of the normal value of items for their level. Helps keep things real. Plus, I make sure items have these limits:
+1 - any level
+2 - at least 5th level
+3 - at least 12th level
+4 and greater - almost never

It seems the issue is with items, so just remove them. Make it IG, or simply tell the players - "The game items are imbalanced, so we need to remove them"

Also, don't let people just pick and spell or feat from any book. Things from other books, let them find them, including feats. A feat could be described in a book or only be available if taught from an NPC for a cost, sometimes a high cost.

 

[andreww]

What problem?

I am not really seeing the problem here. AC is only one form of defence and is often the least valuable of them all. What are his saves like, how high is his touch AC, what is his CMD?

Shadows and wraiths, spellcasters, anything that grapples or sunders, these are going to give him real problems.

Also if he is wearing armour then unless he has invested heavily in some feats he is also taking 15% arcane spell failure.

 

[Hussar]

I am not really seeing the problem here. AC is only one form of defence and is often the least valuable of them all. What are his saves like, how high is his touch AC, what is his CMD?

Shadows and wraiths, spellcasters, anything that grapples or sunders, these are going to give him real problems.

Also if he is wearing armour then unless he has invested heavily in some feats he is also taking 15% arcane spell failure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, his touch AC would still be 22, as he's gaining +8 AC from the +3 Chainmail. Is that right? So, not too bad either.

The problem is, shadows and wraiths are going to be murder on everyone else. Unless you start deliberately targeting this one PC, throwing something that bypasses his specific defences is likely going to bypass everyone else's too.

Naw, the issue here is way, WAY too much character wealth for his level and probably a die roll generated character that let him jack up his Dex to ridiculous levels.

A bit of tactics couldn't hurt too. A CR 7 Pathfinder monster is usually around a +13 or so to hit. Flanking gives +15. Maybe toss in some sort of situational buff once in a while, and you might get it up to +17 or so. Now you're hitting on a 13+. Not too bad for a CR par creature. Makes the PC feel special because he gets missed a lot, but, he's still hittable. Even with just base monsters, you're still in the 20% range by and large.

This character is by no means unhittable.