What would an Anti-Paladin be like?

[Alzrius]

Anti-Paladin = Blackguard?

That's what I thought also. Does everyone else here discount this without saying, or is it a big oversight?

 

[S'mon]

That's what I thought also. Does everyone else here discount this without saying, or is it a big oversight?

The DMG Blackguard comes across as very cheesy Dr Evil type IMO - not helped by the poor art.

OTOH the Blackguard in the Never Winter Nights game was the revenge-fixated, non-self-interested, type who to me looks a lot more interesting. Given a Lawful Evil alignment I believe.

 

[Sanackranib]

Anti-Paladins

If you wanted to make it a true anti-paladin, the first thing to do would be to change the alignment restriction to chaotic evil. Switch lay on hands for a harming version. The Cha bous to saves should probably stay. Immunity to disease might become the ability to become a vector; no disease could affect hm, but it could use him to spread to others. The remove disease might become a poison spell-like ability the same number of times/week.

Demiurge out.

You are working under the assumption that an anti-paladin is exactly the oppsite of a paladin . . . this isn't nessicarilly so. First of all I would change the alignment to evil - but I would require it to be Lawfull Evil. Paladins are part of an orginazation weither good or evil, most serve a church. therefore, they would be lawfull and follow a strict heirechy. picture Darth Vader from the origional Star Wars movie, you think he is the steriotypical anti=paladin in his black plate armor etc. and he seems to be the one in charge. then in the 2nd movie you learn that he is a vassel of a more powerfull evil. I would have the anti-paladin follow the same design as Vader.

I have seen arguments for chaotic evil paladins called Reavers, but IMO once you take away the lawfull alignment you loose the structure that makes them so formidable.

 

[kkoie]

You are working under the assumption that an anti-paladin is exactly the oppsite of a paladin . . . this isn't nessicarilly so. First of all I would change the alignment to evil - but I would require it to be Lawfull Evil. Paladins are part of an orginazation weither good or evil, most serve a church. therefore, they would be lawfull and follow a strict heirechy. picture Darth Vader from the origional Star Wars movie, you think he is the steriotypical anti=paladin in his black plate armor etc. and he seems to be the one in charge. then in the 2nd movie you learn that he is a vassel of a more powerfull evil. I would have the anti-paladin follow the same design as Vader.

I have seen arguments for chaotic evil paladins called Reavers, but IMO once you take away the lawfull alignment you loose the structure that makes them so formidable.

Well I couldn't disagree more. For one thing, they are refering to the more classic and traditional Anti-Paladin as was origonally seen in the 1e NPC Class.

If you are going to call an "anti-paladin" lawful evil, why not take it a step further and call them chaotic good as well!? Chaotic Good paladins would be paladins that further all things unlawful.

Seriously though, a class that has powers of a Paladin, with an LE alignment is not an anti paladin. Anti means opposite, why else whould you use it?

For example, Darth Vader is far far from ever being an Anti-Paladin. Sure he'd qualify for blackguard, but blackguards are more of a blanket prestige class that was created to try and satisfy both the Chaotic Evil AP camp and the Lawful Evil AP camp. But in my opinion, a lawful evil AP is an AP in name only.

Your true Anti-Paladin is like what everyone else has already stated, a person without morals, who thinks of no one but himself, and would betray someone at the drop of a hat.

Darth Vader, despite his motivations, obeyed his master. Anti-Paladins have no master, they worship their god because the god gives them power. They are master to no one.

True Anti-Paladins, if roleplayed properly, are not characters to play in a group, they are solo-campaign characters. Why? Because if roleplayed properly, they will betray their slaves *cough* I mean party at the drop of a hat, if they are presented with an opportunity or situation that furthers themselves. Team work? Team work is for saps, Anti-Paladins know only one 'team', Follow-Me-Or-Die.

Darth Vader would never be one to be a coward. Anti-Paladins are as cowardly as they come. Never lead from the front, lead from the rear so your cannon-fodders get hit first. Never stay and fight unless you have a very distinct advantage. If their is any doubt you could lose, run and fight another day.

Darth Vader, while not one to be honest, or always hold his side of a bargain, did have some standards. When you got into a duel with him, you can be rest assured that he would stick to his sabre and force powers. An Anti-Paladin would appear to do so, but as soon as the battle would start, all of his remaining minions would come in and join the fight as well.

Anyway, traditional AP's are far from Lawful.

 

[Sixchan]

Well I couldn't disagree more. For one thing, they are refering to the more classic and traditional Anti-Paladin as was origonally seen in the 1e NPC Class.

If you are going to call an "anti-paladin" lawful evil, why not take it a step further and call them chaotic good as well!? Chaotic Good paladins would be paladins that further all things unlawful.

Seriously though, a class that has powers of a Paladin, with an LE alignment is not an anti paladin. Anti means opposite, why else whould you use it?

For example, Darth Vader is far far from ever being an Anti-Paladin. Sure he'd qualify for blackguard, but blackguards are more of a blanket prestige class that was created to try and satisfy both the Chaotic Evil AP camp and the Lawful Evil AP camp. But in my opinion, a lawful evil AP is an AP in name only.

Your true Anti-Paladin is like what everyone else has already stated, a person without morals, who thinks of no one but himself, and would betray someone at the drop of a hat.

Darth Vader, despite his motivations, obeyed his master. Anti-Paladins have no master, they worship their god because the god gives them power. They are master to no one.

True Anti-Paladins, if roleplayed properly, are not characters to play in a group, they are solo-campaign characters. Why? Because if roleplayed properly, they will betray their slaves *cough* I mean party at the drop of a hat, if they are presented with an opportunity or situation that furthers themselves. Team work? Team work is for saps, Anti-Paladins know only one 'team', Follow-Me-Or-Die.

Darth Vader would never be one to be a coward. Anti-Paladins are as cowardly as they come. Never lead from the front, lead from the rear so your cannon-fodders get hit first. Never stay and fight unless you have a very distinct advantage. If their is any doubt you could lose, run and fight another day.

Darth Vader, while not one to be honest, or always hold his side of a bargain, did have some standards. When you got into a duel with him, you can be rest assured that he would stick to his sabre and force powers. An Anti-Paladin would appear to do so, but as soon as the battle would start, all of his remaining minions would come in and join the fight as well.

Anyway, traditional AP's are far from Lawful.

Yeah, but if an anti-paladin is just the exact opposite of a paladin, having Smite Good instead of Smite Evil, where on Earth is the fun in that? You might as well just take away the name Paladin, call him a Holy Warrior, and allow him to be of any alignment. And there's your Anti-Paladin.

Why should an Anti-Paladin be the EXACT opposite of a Paladin? That's BORING! Don't you think that if a book was published that had a core class was basicly the paladin with every instance of the word 'evil' in his abilities changed to 'good', and visa-versa, that would be a complete waste of paper? It takes less than 5 minutes to make an Anti-Paladin like that by yourself.

Plus, if they're SO independent, serving only themselves, where do they get their powers? What evil god would give power to a non-worshipper?

 

[kkoie]

Plus, if they're SO independent, serving only themselves, where do they get their powers? What evil god would give power to a non-worshipper?

Thats an easy question to answer... any god that wants Chaos, Destruction, Spite, Strife, Misery, Pain, Cruelty, Anarchy, Betrayel, Paranoia, Fear, and other ideals to spread and multiply. I can think of half a dozen dieties off the top of my head who would do a hat dance if more of those things were spread around.

As for it being boring, its only as boring as you make it. You can make a colorful villain using a class that is the opposite in all ways of a paladin, and still have fun with it. Keep in mind that those creating that type of character would have some sort of interest already vested in a villainous character anyway. Creating villains are easy, now creating a hero, a real hero, thats hard.

 

[Tonguez]

First Answer: Lame as heck!

Second answer: Blackguard as a coreclass (but I'm in the Paladin as Prestige class camp)

Serious Answer

An Anti-Paladin imo is the Black Knight and thus would be Lawful Evil - they are defined by their need to dominate and control. They are good but tyranical leaders and do not tolerate any weakness.

They still need to be able to heal (Lay on Hands but evil - like undead being healed by Harming spells), to Detect Evil and to Smite Good. They also need to be able to inspire fear in others (Inspire Fear).

 

[kkoie]

Alright, let me ask you guys this then. If an Anti-Paladin is Lawful Evil, then *what* do you call a fighter type character with unholy abilities like harming someone, being a carrier of disease, having an unholy aura against good, being able to smite good, having bonuses due to charisma, and able to cast unholy spells, that has an alignment of Chaotic Evil?? A 'Evil Chaotic Paladin'???? And don't tell me they don't exist, thats avoiding the question. Give me a real answer.

 

[Sixchan]

Alright, let me ask you guys this then. If an Anti-Paladin is Lawful Evil, then *what* do you call a fighter type character with unholy abilities like harming someone, being a carrier of disease, having an unholy aura against good, being able to smite good, having bonuses due to charisma, and able to cast unholy spells, that has an alignment of Chaotic Evil?? A 'Evil Chaotic Paladin'???? And don't tell me they don't exist, thats avoiding the question. Give me a real answer.

Well, you could make up a name.

 

[kkoie]

Well, you could make up a name.

uh huh, thats what I though.