What would casting Grease on a swarm do?

[darthkilmor]

Oops, the Centipede Swarm fits as well...Okay.. now what? How is a Prone Centipede Swarm different than a non-Prone Centepede Swarm? Umm..... I cannot see treating a Centipede Swarm as Prone... it wouldn't look any different than normal anyway.

So, per RAW, the spell can force a landbased swarm to burn a move action if it fails the initial REF save when the grease appears under its feat.. otherwize it has no real effect.

Perhaps the Raw should have been clear on whether a Swarm can have the condition of Prone applied to it or not. Oh well, one more bit of sillyness for OOTS

The centipedes could be all slipping around and on their backs ! And they wouldnt be able to use ranged weapons!

But yeah, whether a swarm can be prone would be a good clarification. In fact, is there any creature that specifies that it can't be prone?

 

[melkorspawn]

In fact, is there any creature that specifies that it can't be prone?

I don't have my books here, but perhaps oozes?

 

[Krelios]

Sounds like common sense to me. I think I'm going to veer from RAW on this one.

It's common sense that in a swarm of cats some of them are standing on other cats? That's the argument you put forward.

 

[darthkilmor]

I don't have my books here, but perhaps oozes?

Ooze Type

An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature, usually mindless.

Traits

An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Blind (but have the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight.
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
* Some oozes have the ability to deal acid damage to objects. In such a case, the amount of damage is equal to 10 + ½ ooze’s HD + ooze’s Con modifier per full round of contact.
* Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
* Proficient with its natural weapons only.
* Proficient with no armor.
* Oozes eat and breathe, but do not sleep.

Shoot, unless I'm missing something, it seems like you could do the silly thing of even tripping one.

"Aha, its on its back! oh no's, the fell on the rogue! Quick quick, untrip, untrip!"

 

[ForceUser]

It's common sense that in a swarm of cats some of them are standing on other cats? That's the argument you put forward.

Actually, it's Karin'sDad's argument--I'm simply agreeing with his logic. To answer you, however, no, it's not common sense that a swarm of cats isn't affected anymore than it is common sense that a swarm of spiders is. "Common sense" means playing it by ear and adjudicating such things situationally, using the RAW as a guide but not as an absolute authority. I know, deviating from RAW is a scary thought, but hey, I'm a big boy. You can do that sort of thing when you have your players' trust.

 

[KarinsDad]

Thats all great, but its all assumption and conjecture. If you want to house rule that grease wouldnt affect a land-based swarm, thats great, but you need some SRD to back up your argument that by RAW grease doesnt affect a land-based swarm.

It's not all assumptions as you state.

"Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking."

"A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall."

Since Grease does not affect creatures directly, it affects the surface creatures are on, and since swarms "crawl over each other", my interpretation is just as much RAW as yours.

Grease does not make a surface frictionless, it makes it slick. Since we have NO rules on what this means for creatures on top of creatures on top of creatures, your interpretation is just as much of an assumption as mine is.

Mine just happens to match common sense and game designer intent more than yours. The game designers did not want swarms to be heavily affected by effects that do not affect the entire swarm.

"A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate)"

"immune to weapon damage"

"cannot be tripped"

"cannot be grappled"

"cannot be bullrushed"

RAW more closesly matches my interpretation. The onus is on you to illustrate that a swarm is not immune to a spell that does not directly affect creatures and does not directly touch the entire swarm.


And, let's take an example out of a game.

A PC is covered in Centipedes.

His ally PC casts Grease.

Suddenly, the thousands of Centipedes that are swarming all over that PC, are in his hair, his clothes, etc., all "fall down" because some of the Centipedes on the floor around him are suddenly on a slick surface.

That is blatantly obsurd and nonsensical.

This is a case of DM adjudication as opposed to straight RAW. Personally, I want my DM to make a reasonable one.


Now, I can understand a DM making a ruling that the Grease slows up movement or something. But beyond that, it is taking one RAW interpretation to a nonsensical extreme.

 

[Kelleris]

And, let's take an example out of a game.

A PC is covered in Centipedes.

His ally PC casts Grease.

Suddenly, the thousands of Centipedes that are swarming all over that PC, are in his hair, his clothes, etc., all "fall down" because some of the Centipedes on the floor around him are suddenly on a slick surface.

That is blatantly absurd and nonsensical.

It's also not a very good example, IMO. There's no reason a "prone" centipede swarm wouldn't continue to deal damage to all creatures in its space. That's not what being prone does, anyway - in terms of blunting a creature's offensive abilities, grease gives a penalty on the attack rolls that the swarm isn't making anyway.

It does make some sense to me that the centipedes, churning their way through a couple of inches of slime splattered on the ground, could take a few moments to get themselves moving as a single mass again. The slime just makes coordinated movement slightly harder for them - they have to take a move action to recover themselves - and doesn't do a thing to their ability to nibble a chunk out of the poor sap caught in their space because they don't have to act as a coherent whole to do that.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's also not a very good example, IMO. There's no reason a "prone" centipede swarm wouldn't continue to deal damage to all creatures in its space. That's not what being prone does, anyway - in terms of blunting a creature's offensive abilities, grease gives a penalty on the attack rolls that the swarm isn't making anyway.

Actually, it is a very good example. If a PC has a swarm of Centipedes all over him, why in the world would they "fall down" if the PC does not fall down?

 

[IanB]

I don't see the relevance. The PC is taking damage if he is in the swarm's area, whether or not they are prone.

EDIT: To expand your logic, why does it make sense that all the centipedes automatically fall off of said PC when he walks out of their square?

 

[IcyCool]

Mine just happens to match common sense and game designer intent more than yours.

*chuckles*