What would casting Grease on a swarm do?

[KarinsDad]

So I'd actually say that my point, which was that conjuration spells generate a real stuff that can be expected to have real-stuff-like effects - like a layer of grease being churned into hard-to-manage goop by a swarm - is supported by these cases. Presumably plenty of grease leaves the spell area after it's cast, just not enough to generate the grease spell's effect. I don't see why the grease wouldn't act like grease (get smeared all over the place and making everything slippery, including making more than just one doesn't-actually-exist-as-a-defined-unit "bottom row of centipedes" so) as long as the swarm is in the spell's area of effect.

Precisely.

You have finally looped back around to my main point.

"as long as the swarm is in the spell's area of effect"

A 10 foot square of Grease is NOT a cube. It does not affect everything above it.

Since the non-flying swarm is shapeable and can climb on itself and its prey, it does not have to remain in the area of effect of the spell, especially if there is prey to hang onto.

And, any creature that touches the grease is not affected by the spell effects of the grease once they leave the area of effect (just like all of the Fog and Cloud spells). There might be bits and pieces attached to the creature, but they are minute and irrelevant to game mechanics. Just like a dispersed Fog spell.

 

[Caliban]

Well, Sculpt Spell cannot be used to change a spell into a 20' burst (a spread yes).

I also wouldn't allow Sculpt Spell to affect area spells which are not already one of the shapes and minimum sizes that the feat allows for. This gives it the power of a Widen Spell (and more since you can also change the shape) which takes 3 extra spell slots for a single spell slot.

The reason is that the mechanic is broken since it gives a lot of power to spells that were limited in size in the first place.

This not only applies to Grease, but it applies to other "small area" spells as well.

For example, Call Lightning, Glitterdust, Glyph of Warding.

Your personal ruling for the feat aside, my question stands. What if the Grease spell was a 20' spread? Or four 10' cubes that overlap the area of the swarm?

 

[Kelleris]

Precisely.

You have finally looped back around to my main point.

"as long as the swarm is in the spell's area of effect"

A 10 foot square of Grease is NOT a cube. It does not affect everything above it.

Since the non-flying swarm is shapeable and can climb on itself and its prey, it does not have to remain in the area of effect of the spell, especially if there is prey to hang onto.

Wow, that is completely not how I understand the shapeability aspect of a swarm. Do you really think all 3000 insects can glom onto one guy like that to escape the grease and then mysteriously disperse when he steps 5 feet away as a not-an-action? Or that the swarm can easily and instantaneously structure itself such that only some imaginary "bottom layer" is in the grease and nothing else is affected? Those are pretty weird ways to imagine the situation, to my mind.

If a landbound swarm wants to get at someone standing in the middle of a grease spell, it most certainly does have to remain in the area of effect of the spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where does it state that they are immune to mind-affecting spells?

... that affect a specific number of creatures. Unless they have a Hive Mind.

Now, the question for the "rules literal" side of this discussion is:

Is a flying swarm affected by Grease since it is in the same square?

Is the answer no because it is a cube (as opposed to a square)?

Let's say there's a swarm of bats, and I have a flaming torch, but I'm blind, thus granting the swarm total concealment.

You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

Does this mean I cannot damage the bats with my torch, since no matter which square I attack into, it's not a square they occupy... they only occupy a cube?

-Hyp.

 

[darthkilmor]

As a corellery(sp?) question to the swarm/prone thing, is there Any type or subtype that specificies "can't be prone"? what about individual creatures?

 

[KarinsDad]

Let's say there's a swarm of bats, and I have a flaming torch, but I'm blind, thus granting the swarm total concealment.

You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

Does this mean I cannot damage the bats with my torch, since no matter which square I attack into, it's not a square they occupy... they only occupy a cube?

You did not directly answer the question.

Is a flying swarm affected by Grease since it is in the same square?

 

[KarinsDad]

Your personal ruling for the feat aside, my question stands. What if the Grease spell was a 20' spread? Or four 10' cubes that overlap the area of the swarm?

True.

I avoided your question. Partially because I have disliked Sculpt Spell as broken for a long time, even for other similar sized spells. I especially dislike the 4 cube aspect of it because there are no rules on where you can place them. And for smaller area spells, it is definitely broken when compared to Widen Spell.


I think a "spread of grease" would affect all creatures AND all inattended objects in the area unless they made saves.

The real issue with Grease is that it doesn't make a lot sense when you discuss a Swarm with the possible exception of reduced movement.

A literal ruling is that a Flying Swarm is in the area and is also a creature, hence, it is affected by a normal Grease spell. But, it does not make sense that a Flying Swarm is affected at all.

Ditto for a non-flying swarm, it is just a little easier to see how they are affected. However, swarms have certain "falling down" immunities and certain "targets only part of the swarm, so it does not affect the swarm" immunities, and although Grease does not directly fall into those categories according to RAW, it does fall into those categories according to how Swarms work.

According to RAW, all Swarms would be affected by Grease. According to how Swarms are designated (cannot be tripped, cannot be affected by spells that only affect a few creatures), that makes very little sense.

 

[Camarath]

... that affect a specific number of creatures. Unless they have a Hive Mind.

I think Mind-Affecting spells such as Sleep and Deep Slumber would work on swarms because the spells target a non-specific number of creatures.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think Mind-Affecting spells such as Sleep and Deep Slumber would work on swarms because the spells target a non-specific number of creatures.

Looks like it, yeah. As long as the swarm is under the HD limit.

Cool

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

So I'd actually say that my point, which was that conjuration spells generate a real stuff that can be expected to have real-stuff-like effects - like a layer of grease being churned into hard-to-manage goop by a swarm - is supported by these cases. Presumably plenty of grease leaves the spell area after it's cast, just not enough to generate the grease spell's effect. I don't see why the grease wouldn't act like grease (get smeared all over the place and making everything slippery, including making more than just one doesn't-actually-exist-as-a-defined-unit "bottom row of centipedes" so) as long as the swarm is in the spell's area of effect.

Because this implies that the grease spell effect can simply be wiped up with rags. This is just not possible with a magic effect - unless it specifically states so.