Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Nagol" data-source="post: 6073079" data-attributes="member: 23935"><p>I'll discuss the concerns from a Basic-->1e->2e-->3e+ perspective.</p><p></p><p>The problems with tier 1 casters break down into a few areas:</p><p></p><p>They are the only classes that can develop many forms of convenience/campaign altering utility. Teleport, divination, communication, plane travelling, recovery from mishap, and survival in hostile environments like lave or ocean depths, means the range of adventures/available responses goes up dramatically as the character gain access to the abilities. By controlling the choice of the abilities, tier-1 casters gain a disproportionate say in <em>what</em> the party does. </p><p></p><p>Magic became less rare and more predictably available. 3e+ had a basic conceit of fungible and available magic items that weakened the desire to hold on to secondary treasure finds. This undercut skewing in the treasure result and allowed each character to focus on power/effectiveness in his role rather than developing a broader mix of eclectic ability. In the arcane spellcasters' case, this loosening also meant much greater access to spells to add to their repetoire. 3e exasperated the problem by developing a geometric cost structure for magic items, introducing magic item creation rules for low and mid-level characters whilst introducing the (mis-applied) concept of Wealth by Level.</p><p></p><p>Each edition tried to remove an annoying feature of tier-1 casters. Failing to get a coveted spell isn't fun therefore 2e allowed a roll per level rather than a roll per character. Even failing for a level or three isn't fun so 3e dropped the concept entirely. Tracking spell components wasn't fun, so spell component cases were introduced that allowed unlimited cheap components. Losing a spell n combat because the opponents managed to strike the caster wasn't fun so 3e introduced the Concentration check. Having hard cap on spells known wasn't fun so it was loosened in 2e and removed entirely in 3e. Maintaining a list of curative magics wasn't fun so spontaneous conversion of spells was introduced. The result of this loosening was a much wider range of ability for tier-1 casters and a lessened need on trade-offs in spell discovery and preparation. In other words, the spell casters could more easily step into other roles.</p><p></p><p>The concept of caster skill making magic harder to resist reversed the original resistance progression. Originally, a character would succumb to almost any spell but became more resistant with level gains. Later editions had low-level characters resist spells frequently, but the resistance became less frequent as the spell level and caster strength went up faster than the inherent bonuses to saving throws. General hit point inflation and non-spell combat damage inflation increased the emphasis on bypassing hp rather than helping ablate them with spells. The net result is tier-1 casters aren't helping in the hit point ablation mini-game. They are working independently to remove the opponents.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Nagol, post: 6073079, member: 23935"] I'll discuss the concerns from a Basic-->1e->2e-->3e+ perspective. The problems with tier 1 casters break down into a few areas: They are the only classes that can develop many forms of convenience/campaign altering utility. Teleport, divination, communication, plane travelling, recovery from mishap, and survival in hostile environments like lave or ocean depths, means the range of adventures/available responses goes up dramatically as the character gain access to the abilities. By controlling the choice of the abilities, tier-1 casters gain a disproportionate say in [I]what[/I] the party does. Magic became less rare and more predictably available. 3e+ had a basic conceit of fungible and available magic items that weakened the desire to hold on to secondary treasure finds. This undercut skewing in the treasure result and allowed each character to focus on power/effectiveness in his role rather than developing a broader mix of eclectic ability. In the arcane spellcasters' case, this loosening also meant much greater access to spells to add to their repetoire. 3e exasperated the problem by developing a geometric cost structure for magic items, introducing magic item creation rules for low and mid-level characters whilst introducing the (mis-applied) concept of Wealth by Level. Each edition tried to remove an annoying feature of tier-1 casters. Failing to get a coveted spell isn't fun therefore 2e allowed a roll per level rather than a roll per character. Even failing for a level or three isn't fun so 3e dropped the concept entirely. Tracking spell components wasn't fun, so spell component cases were introduced that allowed unlimited cheap components. Losing a spell n combat because the opponents managed to strike the caster wasn't fun so 3e introduced the Concentration check. Having hard cap on spells known wasn't fun so it was loosened in 2e and removed entirely in 3e. Maintaining a list of curative magics wasn't fun so spontaneous conversion of spells was introduced. The result of this loosening was a much wider range of ability for tier-1 casters and a lessened need on trade-offs in spell discovery and preparation. In other words, the spell casters could more easily step into other roles. The concept of caster skill making magic harder to resist reversed the original resistance progression. Originally, a character would succumb to almost any spell but became more resistant with level gains. Later editions had low-level characters resist spells frequently, but the resistance became less frequent as the spell level and caster strength went up faster than the inherent bonuses to saving throws. General hit point inflation and non-spell combat damage inflation increased the emphasis on bypassing hp rather than helping ablate them with spells. The net result is tier-1 casters aren't helping in the hit point ablation mini-game. They are working independently to remove the opponents. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?
Top