What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?

Oversquid

First Post
If not the biggest problem, just say all the problems you can think of. I'll begin this thread by saying a few that I've heard around (Most of what I say here is about the wizard, but this thread is by no means limited to the wizard):

  • Scrolls are too cheap by the rulebooks. Thanks to this cheapness, the Wizard (and Sorcerer too) can amass such a horde of scrolls with their enormous disposable income (Not really needing weapons or armor like most other classes do), and will always have something that can resolve the encounter/situation without really any effort.
  • Utility Spells like Invisibility and Fly last too long.

Otherwise, some other consensus I received was that if the GM were to enforce Spell Components, such as Material Components, Focuses, XP, and others, then a lot of issues that people have with the wizard will likely become a lot less of an issue. But also to enforce the rarity of certain spell focuses too- for example, the Transform spell, which is a 9th level spell, requires a Jade Circlet thats worth up to 10,000gp. Yes, its only 10,000gp, but lets also ask, who in the world will be keeping such high quality jade circlets around? A D&D equivalent to Bill Gates with an eccentric fashion sense? A few powerful wizards, and even then, how many exactly?

Though I am sure there are others. What more is it about spellcasters like Clerics, Druids, and Wizards that make them so powerful on their own?
 

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Stormonu

Legend
Clerics & Druids don't have a fixed list of known spells. Every additional book you bring into the game that has such spells in it becomes immediately accessible.

Time. The more time spellcasters have to prepare, the bigger the chance they have to be disruptive. This not only covers making magic items such as scrolls, potions, wands and other items but also adjusting their spell list for upcoming enemies. Coupled with Divinations, it allows for scry & die-like tactics; a spellcaster is MOST powerful when they know what they will face.

Round-robin initiative. Not declaring actions before rolling initiative before each round is a HUGE boost for spellcasters, especially in older editions where getting struck before you went ensure your spell failed.

Magic Economy. Any character that has access to buying or selling magic items gains a huge jump in power, not just casters.

Druid's Animal Companion. It can out-fight the fighter, often without even the druid beginning to buff it.

Bonus spells from high stats. Mostly aids low-level casters, but just adds salt to open wounds with extra firepower given to the caster.

Note: Invisibility is only broken if it can be cast more than once in a given day. Otherwise, it makes a nice way to get an alpha strike off or for the party to lose the wizard and not notice he's been abducted or gotten lost. Fly used to be the greatest tool of the DM, as it was the second easiest way to kill the wizard (solo invisibility being the first), and it's generally worthless in a dungeon environment.
 

Nezkrul

First Post
IMHO, "tier 1" casters are working as intended. There have no problems. In a fantasy setting about magic and adventure and slaying evil demons and dragons, these guys do just fine. It's all the other classes that WOTC printed that aren't as good as these guys at doing those things that are the problems. Don't try to fix something that isn't broken; also, be sure you know what is "broken" and what is "OMGWTFBBQOP BROKEN"; for instance compare how the class "Samurai" works overall, how efficient it is, and so on; I call that broken. Now, the spell Celerity, that one is the latter broken. See the difference?

The comment about the animal companion out-fighting the fighter? that only happens when the player of the fighter is retarded at making fighters, or if the DM doesn't realize that an animal companion has a 2 intelligence - it doesn't use tactics or act like a character, it requires handle animal checks of the druid to get it do very specific things; if he lets the player play the animal companion like a person he is in the wrong, not the animal companion
 
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If not the biggest problem, just say all the problems you can think of. I'll begin this thread by saying a few that I've heard around (Most of what I say here is about the wizard, but this thread is by no means limited to the wizard):

[*]Scrolls are too cheap by the rulebooks. Thanks to this cheapness, the Wizard (and Sorcerer too) can amass such a horde of scrolls with their enormous disposable income (Not really needing weapons or armor like most other classes do), and will always have something that can resolve the encounter/situation without really any effort.
[*]Utility Spells like Invisibility and Fly last too long.

I wouldn't list those last two spells as "utility". They're OP due to their defensive potentially, especially invisibility.

In fact, I find invisibility to be uniquely broken (compared to 4e), the issue not being the spell so much as the rules around perception, stealth and blindness. In 3.x, invisibility is "real" invisibility, in that you get no visual indication of where the target is. Invisibility gives a +20 bonus to combat Stealth (and potentially higher bonuses outside of combat), plus there's an irritating minigame revolving around finding which square an enemy is hiding in with your ears, then attacking that square with a 50% miss chance due to total concealment, and potentially wasting a round sticking your hands into two adjacent squares... Being blind is also one of the nastiest conditions in 3.x.

In 4e this is vastly simpler. Blindness isn't really blindness (it's blurred vision), and invisibility isn't really invisibility (it's total concealment, period). Being invisible gives you no numerical bonus to Stealth at all. What it does is let you hide in plain sight.

If you fail your Stealth check, your opponent knows where you are, and can take the -5 penalty to hit you. Significant, especially given how tight 4e math is, but not unstoppable. If you make your Stealth check, then your opponent has to guess where you are. First you make a Stealth check against passive Perception, then if you succeed each opponent can make a Perception check as a minor action to try to find you (if there's line of sight, which is kind of a funny concept considering they can't see you).

In 4e, flying is simply far more limited, at least when it comes to being given to magic-using PCs. (Monsters that fly are pretty common.)

Otherwise, some other consensus I received was that if the GM were to enforce Spell Components, such as Material Components, Focuses, XP, and others, then a lot of issues that people have with the wizard will likely become a lot less of an issue.

I disagree. I think those are artificial and unfun fixes, plus they require tedious record-keeping. I think the issue was a lot of poorly-balanced spells. Many of these spells appeared in 4e and are balanced, requiring few fixes.

One issue is duration. Rituals were a good fix in 4e; you want a long-term benefit? Then spend a long time! (Alas, they were usually too expensive, at least at low-levels when people would learn to like them, so by epic when they were cheap noone was using them.)

for example, the Transform spell, which is a 9th level spell, requires a Jade Circlet thats worth up to 10,000gp. Yes, its only 10,000gp, but lets also ask, who in the world will be keeping such high quality jade circlets around? A D&D equivalent to Bill Gates with an eccentric fashion sense? A few powerful wizards, and even then, how many exactly?

I'd be more concerned if I found Transform to be a "broken" spell, which I don't find it to be. I don't like "screwing over" players by denying them their rightful tools.

If I think a spell is broken, I would rather ban or nerf it than use such an artificial unfun "balancing" technique.

Though I am sure there are others. What more is it about spellcasters like Clerics, Druids, and Wizards that make them so powerful on their own?

One thing is save DCs. Save DCs scale at the same rate as a good save (and sometimes faster, if the good save's stat isn't being boosted every four levels; for instance, a fighter isn't likely to boost their Constitution organically) and far faster than a weak save. It's usually pretty easy to guess someone's poor save. The big guy in clunky armor isn't moving too swiftly, so you should cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (a Reflex save targeting spell) at him. That guy is going to be locked up for 1 minute/level (minimum 7 levels) and doesn't have the tools to get out. In one round, you just took out an opponent with a single spell, for the entire combat. That started out being about mismatched save DCs, but note the duration issue too. (In 4e, such a spell typically gives a save per round, with a flat 55% chance of making it; fortunately, 4e also fixes another end of the equation, in that the wizard always has something to do every round.)

A few sessions ago in Kingmaker (it's Pathfinder, but pretty similar to 3.x), we ran into one of the same issues that breaks 3.x magic.

The DM is allowing a fairly high point buy. (3.0 was playtested with 25 point buy, with wizards starting with Int 15. Naturally, none of the starting races had mental stat boosts.) We had a new character, an elf "necromancer", and he started with natural Int of 20 at 1st-level! (He was 8th or 9th-level, so he had an Int of 22, before his +4 headband of intellect.) Being an elf, he got +2 Int, and the point buy was so high he could start with an Int of 18 before racial mods and still not have terrible Dex and Con scores either.

He could throw around spells with save DC of 18 + spell level, so a max of 22. We're not facing too many 8th-level opponents with a weak save of anything like +12. He used Hideous Laughter on an opponent, and said opponent could save each round (much like in 4e), but the save was a full-round action, and the save DC was so high he wouldn't make it, so it wasn't much better than Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.

And then I found out that Mirror Image, a powerful but well-designed defensive spell, got beefed in Pathfinder so it's now ludicrous... I used to detail that spell's great design potential (it doesn't bother trying to boost a wizard's weak AC and hit points, but at the same time a non-caster can get through the images by making multiple attacks, which of course means the wizard survives a while longer...) but Mirror Image in Pathfinder uses the caster's AC, which can be buffed to the point that attackers start missing images :(

So I think high stats are a problem too. I seriously doubt anyone plays 25 point buy D&D, and even if they do, who actually plays a wizard with a starting Int of only 15, other than the original playtesters? (I doubt Int 20 casters at 1st-level are an actual problem in 3.x most of the time, but you could get a save DC this high with Spell Focus and some non-core feats.)

In that same encounter, the DM was far too permissive about us buffing. I play a druid, who benefited considerably from buffing (before he got a Belt of Giant Strength anyway; prior to that battle, my own druid used Barkskin and Bull's Strength, along with hour-long buffs such as Wildshape, Greater Magic Fang and Longstrider), and the barbarian/alchemist could use Enlarge Person and his mutagen, etc. This is both a rule and a DMing issue. In 4e, buff spells only last a round (but are often at-will, working on an attack spell, or are a minor action), meaning you can't just buff to the gills, increase your power level by 50% or whatever, and then blenderize the opposition. That's the kind of thing that divides fanbases though.

There's more. Last session I think I might have broken an encounter with my druid. In Pathfinder, wildshape is much more balanced (though a lack of playtesting seems to have resulted in wildshape giving poor armor class scores unless the DM is as nice as mine). Wildshape wasn't what broke the encounter. Having just reached 9th-level the druid summoned a Large air elemental with Summon Nature's Ally V. (Because of the the way wildshape works, forcing you to actually boost your Strength, unlike in 3.x, where a Strength 8 druid was still a terror while wildshaped) my druid boosted Strength rather than Wisdom. So his save DCs are low, and he has few bonus levels, and no bonus 5th-level spell.

Still, what I could do with that spell is frightening. I summoned an air elemental, which then turned into a whirlwind, with save DC 18 to pick up opponents and move at 100 feet per move action. (The whirlwind doesn't have to attack, it just needs to touch or move through an opponent, helpfully not provoking attacks of opportunity.)

Oh, my druid has Augment Summoning, which boosted the save DC to 20 (+4 Strength to summoned creatures, and the save DC of the whirlwind is Strength-based).

The rules were poorly written too. I'm not sure how many saves a victim gets when first hit. Can they only get sucked up if they fail two saves, and not just one?

As it was, my elemental turned into a whirlwind (standard action), then literally swept the battlefield, attacking all five enemies (it's Large, and has a fly speed of 100). Three failed their saves and got transported away. One round later and they were too far away to do anything, plus one was nearly dead and had turned into red goop. Next time I'll have the elemental go straight upward, so that killing it from the inside becomes a bad choice. (Of course, not killing it is a bad choice to...)

And the next turn, while two creatures were essentially Otiluke's Resilient Sphered, my druid got to fight as a bear, and his animal companion got to fight... you can see why druids might seem OP there.

At no point did my druid have to spend a single material component or anything like that. All I had to do was be more than 5 feet away from potential attackers (easy when a Huge bear has so much reach, and I can literally have my druid be in bear form all day).
 
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Nezkrul

First Post
You can't tell us that 3.X is broken because 4.0 does things this way... 4.0 is a completely different system, and IMHO it isn't DND anymore. Its everyone is a guy with the same number of abilities that do the same things based on the role you wanted to play. That's it. It is oversimplified to the point of no one is special ever. I hate 4e. And 5.0 isn't looking any better.

Comparing PF to 3.X is is a little bit better to use than 4.0 because the guy who wrote PF basically just created his own campaign and houserules, got it published, and instead of sitting down and doing the work themselves people started buying this guy's books (laziness = money I guess)

I see nothing wrong with invisibility. By the time the wizard can cast it, it only lasts 3 minutes (or 1 minute at 1st level if you take a certain feat). It goes away as soon as he takes a hostile action. A spot check against DC 20 allows a person/creature to notice the prescence of an invisible creature within 10 feat of them (reflexively), a move Action spot check against the target's hide+20 allows them to pinpoint the square, and many other abilities allow them to pinpoint the square (like scent, tremorsense, blindsight, blindsense, glitterdust, faerie fire, the environment (ie foot prints, or dusty air moving for no reason)) I don't understand people's frustration over this so-called buff. The one you should really be mad at is Greater Invisibility (the 4th level version), that doesn't go away when the recipient attacks. ORS has been a staple control spell since 1e. It's like paladin bubble from WOW but forced on a target with a save to "evade" it - it shouldn't allow a save and only last 1 rd/level IMO, its made of "invisible force" so how do you dodge it? Evard's Black Tentacles is also a (better) control spell because it affects an area, can cause damage to the baddies you want to control, and remains a threat even if someone escapes it.

If you never give your spellcasters time to prepare then you shouldn't allow the non-spellcasters time to heal hitpoints without the aid of magic. If you want to punish your players because they are playing their class intelligently, disallow the class before even starting the game - you won't ever run into problems that way. Banning spells that are used intelligently after the fact is also punishing your player for playing his class. Don't do that. Talk with your player about how you feel about the imbalancing nature of that spell and work with him to come up with a solution. The only type of character that doesn't benefit from downtime is the melee blockhead type, who have low to no skills of any use other than combat. Consequently, these classes are boring to play because of the lack of things it can do outside of its Area of Expertise. That being said, you can build them to be better outside combat, but that requires the use of intelligence, ingenuity, roleplaying, and.... DOWNTIME!
 

I see nothing wrong with invisibility. By the time the wizard can cast it, it only lasts 3 minutes (or 1 minute at 1st level if you take a certain feat). It goes away as soon as he takes a hostile action.

Summoning a monster is a hostile action that doesn't break the spell.

A spot check against DC 20 allows a person/creature to notice the prescence of an invisible creature within 10 feat of them (reflexively),

It's very difficult for a lot of characters to get a Spot check that high. Many classes don't train it. Also, that range is 30 feet. Why is the wizard within 30 feet of the guy with the big axe and the angry demeanor? He should be over 100 feet away and behind a tree, or (in a dungeon) behind his friends, and be worried about arrows, not swords and axes.

a move Action spot check against the target's hide+20 allows them to pinpoint the square

A Spot check of Hide +20 is very hard to make, even if you do have Spot as a class skill.

and many other abilities allow them to pinpoint the square (like scent, tremorsense, blindsight, blindsense, glitterdust, faerie fire, the environment (ie foot prints, or dusty air moving for no reason))

Scent, tremorsense, blindsight, and blindsense are not available to most PCs. (Scent is available to my druid, but only because druids can wildshape easily. It wouldn't be available to most PCs, eg 10 of 11 base classes.)

Glitterdust and Faerie Fire (and bags of flour) require you to guess where the opponent is. See above note about the "guessing game".

You didn't mention See Invisibility or True Seeing (only benefits one PC, so only one PC can engage the invisible mage) or Invisibility Purge, which unfortunately has a limited area-of-effect (a mage can blast you from hundreds of feet away, invisible, with a Wand of Fireballs; Inviz Purge does nothing for you there).

The environment is how you make that Spot check in the first place. You rolled a natural 20 and made your Spot check. You saw him accidentally kick over some dust.

The one you should really be mad at is Greater Invisibility (the 4th level version), that doesn't go away when the recipient attacks.

This one is much worse.

ORS has been a staple control spell since 1e. It's like paladin bubble from WOW but forced on a target with a save to "evade" it - it shouldn't allow a save and only last 1 rd/level IMO, its made of "invisible force" so how do you dodge it?

Just because it was in 1e doesn't mean it's balanced in 3e. By the time you threw that spell around in 1e, opponents were more likely to make their saving throws. (In earlier editions, saves got better with level, but save DCs did not increase.)

You might not be able to "dodge" the spell again, but if it came with hit points instead of being an indestructible barrier, that would give a noncaster stuck inside one a chance to get out.

Evard's Black Tentacles is also a (better) control spell because it affects an area, can cause damage to the baddies you want to control, and remains a threat even if someone escapes it.

If you ever read a thread about how high those grapple bonuses get, you might think this one is worse than the sphere. (Of course, the victims might be able to escape, getting a check every round, so maybe it's more balanced.) I preferred the sphere when I was playing a wizard simply because it was "fire and forget" and easier to memorize the math. I just needed to know the range and save DC, both of which were written on my character sheet.

If you never give your spellcasters time to prepare then you shouldn't allow the non-spellcasters time to heal hitpoints without the aid of magic.

I think you missed the point I was giving there. Spellcasters shouldn't always get to buff, and it's too easy to buff a lot and then teleport. (The enemies could do that to us too, but that wouldn't be much fun for us, and in any event it's still a tier 1 casters being up on everyone situation. Fighters don't have many options when it comes to self-buffing, and barbarians can only rage.)
 
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Ahnehnois

First Post
The biggest is probably that daily limitations are not an effective balancing tool. In most situations, spellcasters of even moderate level rarely run out of spells. Casters get way, way too many spells. The death of additional costs or limitations on spell usage is problematic.

Another problem is relatively unrestricted spell access. There used to be a one-time percentage roll as to whether you could learn a particular spell. Some type of research process should be mechanized. Divine casters automatically knowing their entire spell list is especially troublesome.

There's also the relative reliability of magic. Generally, a spellcaster can feel more confident that his spell will have an effect than a fighter can be that his attack will have any effect. Spellcasting is just too easy.

***

Beyond the deep conceptual issues with the D&D/Vancian paradigm, the more specific issues with 3e relate to casters being single-ability dependent, making them too easy to min/max, and certain spells being egregiously abuse-able (polymorphs being the most prominent example).
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
The biggest problem is the spells. Too many spells by far are either 1) over-nerfed (blasting spells), 2) overpowered (most SoL spells, great buffs/utilities with long durations), or 3) specifically designed to ruin game balance. (Seriously, Rope Trick and all those Mordenkainen's Magnificent Swedish Spa type spells...wtf??)

There're other problems too, like animal companions, wild shaping, turn undead cheese, and muggles...well, sucking for the most part. But the fundamental flaw with casters is that spells are inconsistent. Some of them are noob-traps, while others require a DM to play this weird kind of rock-paper-scissor minigame that increases in complexity (and frustration IME) as levels increase.

Once you iron out inconsistent spell balance to a more reasonable power level, problems like cheap scrolls and unlimited spell lists become minor to moot.

Oh, and the schools of magic and the way that spells are categorized therein often makes no sense. But that's not a balance issue. :)

If I think a spell is broken, I would rather ban or nerf it than use such an artificial unfun "balancing" technique.
Amen to that!
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
If not the biggest problem, just say all the problems you can think of. I'll begin this thread by saying a few that I've heard around (Most of what I say here is about the wizard, but this thread is by no means limited to the wizard):

  • Scrolls are too cheap by the rulebooks. Thanks to this cheapness, the Wizard (and Sorcerer too) can amass such a horde of scrolls with their enormous disposable income (Not really needing weapons or armor like most other classes do), and will always have something that can resolve the encounter/situation without really any effort.
  • Utility Spells like Invisibility and Fly last too long.


I don't think either of those have really got it. I think Stormonu is on a better track with the unfixed spell lists of Clerics and Druids (watch out for 3.5's Spell Compendium because you will see a jump in druid/cleric spell power), time, and cyclical (round robin) initiative.

As far as utility spells like invisibility and fly lasting too long, 3rd edition significantly shortened the length of invisibility compared to previous editions - something I disagree with because it takes it from a utility spell to mainly a combat spell. I usually restore the duration to significantly longer than in 3.5.

I don't think scrolls are a primary problem in 3.5. That issue pales in comparison to problems with wands and crafting magic items in general. In 1e/2e, magic items were hard to craft because it wasn't a simple matter of having a proficiency/feat, having time, and having money. It was some kind of negotiated settlement with the DM how to do it and probably involved some questing. Either way, it was a hassle and people usually left it alone. In addition, treasure distribution by the tables was skewed toward short consumables (potions, scrolls) and martial gear (weapons and armor). Wizarding magic items other than scrolls were rare by the tables. It was the game's way of making sure the fighters, thieves, and clerics (which were weaker spellcasters in general) had the gear they needed to do what they did most of the time - fight.

In addition, I would add the concentration of offensive power into a single stat is a problem and allowing that to determine save DCs. In 1e/2e, saves were determined by the power of the target not the caster. Those save or die spells people love to bandy about in 3e as the dominating strategy weren't a dominating strategy in high level 1e/2e because they were a crap shoot where you couldn't stack the odds.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
One of the big flaws in this is DMs who don't know the rules and don't enforce the limitations of certain spells. Take scribe spell you have to have time to do this if your casters are spending so much downtime just sitting around scribing spells then take away some if that downtime. Also make them keep track of the XP costs. Also unless they have a Hewards handy backpack it takes time to find the exact scroll you are looking for and in combat digging around in your pack can trigger an AOO.

You also need to play the enemy smarter when it is appropriate there are ways to counter invisible creatures like magical spells that let you see invisibility glitter dust and mundane things like paint, flour, blankets. If they are casting summoning spells and don't have silent spell then you should get a listen check to see if you can hear them. These are all things I have done as a player with dealing with an invisible creature.

Certain magical items should be hard to find like the other poster pointed out.

Part of the problem for me is skills and they way they can be easily max out be quickly if that was in the game then making a concentration check not to lose a spell becomes more difficult.

Also DMs need to plan encounters that don't have all the combatants in one area to be taken out by an area spell. Make the magic users have to work for it.

One of the things I often read about is fixes that just basically make the mage unfun to play. Like making them say what they are doing before the round unless you make every class do this this unfairly penalizes mages and their players ability to adjust what they were going to do while they wait there turn to go. Making spells take more time so basically players who play mages have to sit around doing nothing while the other players get to play. Making spells full round actions is one thing longer than that is to long for spells used in combat though for some non combat or special spells I see no harm with doing that.

My big issue with clerics and druids is that they get to know every spell on their list. I much prefer a limited list based on the cleric deity a lot like they did with spheres back in AD&D or if you don't want to go that route make them pick spells like a sorcerer and give them spell slots for casting.

I have never really found a druid's companion that big of an issue they should not just attack because the druid is in combat the druid should have to either command them to which requires rolling a handle animal or the animal should feel threatened. Also I have seen DMs let druid companions get away with things like flanking these are animals not familiars and they should again have to be commanded to do it again another handle animal roll and some training when not in combat.

Personally I would like to strangle the person who came up with the tier system used as a tool for the DM to know how to plan encounters is one thing but it has become a see this class is better than that class kind of thinking.
 

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