What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?

Indeed, the old school assumption is that monsters exist for a different reason than player characters, and thus are designed differently. And specifically, the short expected lifespan of a monster is a large part of that difference.

The old school assumption was there for a reason. For one thing, balance between asymmetric individuals or groups (and yes, even 4e characters are highly asymetric) is only a meaningful concept if you say what they are balanced for. 3e does not, and therefore the balance is entirely and obviously screwed up because the very game itself is not sure what they are balancing.

If you only ever use monsters for short battles, than they can be balanced on that basis and it will work. However, if that is not the case, it doesn't work.

Indeed. But if you balance for something else then the short battles balance does not work. As in D&D the overwhelming majority of antagonists are used in short battles, this is the most sensible thing to balance the game for. Almost no NPCs get used in the same way PCs do, therefore balancing them as PCs is almost pointless and should at best be a subsidiary rating.

While humans, cats, golems, angels, and dragons are very different creatures, they all need to be built and advanced in the same manner.

Um... why?

In this regard, 3e was a step forward from 2e, and 3.5 was a step forward from 3.0 (and PF hasn't done anything and 4e goes off the rails and 5e is not entirely back on them). There's still work to be done in this area.

Or rather 3e went off the rails and, as in so many other ways, 4e reverted back to the much more useful previous version because it works and is genuinely useful.
 

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N'raac

First Post
I suppose you could do that and then assign level to monsters and not allow casters to polymorph beyond their level. But, then you'd have all sorts of screaming about allowing meta-game mechanics to dictate in-game reality. ((I can polymorph into X but not Y? Why not? ))

Meta-game mechanics already dictate in game reality, especially in the magic system. A Level 1 spell can transport any one of a number of creatures, at the caster's discretion, from another plane, render it amenable to following the directions of the caster, enable it to discern the caster's enemies and then send it back after a few minutes.

What level spell is required to send the caster to that same plane, with no other effects and no return trip?
 

JustinAlexander

First Post
(In addition, AD&D polymorph was pretty weak. I don't recall it giving ability score bonuses. Maybe it gave multiple attacks and base AC, which could presumably go out of control, but it was nowhere near as strong as the 3.x version.)

In OD&D there were two polymorph spells: Polymorph self and polymorph others. Polymorph self allowed the user to take the shape of the desired creature, but does not grant "the combat abilities of the thing he has polymorphed himself to resemble". (The example given is that the caster gets neither the attacks nor breath weapons of the of a dragon, but they would be able to fly.) Polymorph others, on the other hand, is permanent and "gives all characteristics of the form of the creature." There is also a vague reference to "not necessarily the mentality, however." Both spells require system shock checks.

In 1st Edition, polymorph self is similarly limited in that it gave you nothing except "the form of any creature and its form of locomotion", but it no longer required a system shock save and also gave the caster the ability to change form multiple times during the duration of the spell. Polymorph other, on the other hand, was essentially identical to its OD&D incarnation except that the vague "not necessarily the mentality" reference had been turned into a defined system for determining whether or not a targeted creature would assume the personality and mentality of their new form. But, yeah, it gave you everything from the creature.

2nd Edition closes a loophole in polymorph self (no noncorporeal forms, dammit) and adds mode of breathing to the list of traits you acquire. (I should probably add breathing to my polymorph fix, too.) Polymorph other has gotten massively more complicated in an effort to deal with weird loopholes and special cases (like casting the spell on shapechangers against their will), but the major change is that it's limited the abilities gained to "physical abilities" (which it then attempts to define). The system shock and potential mentality shifts remain.

3.0 eliminates the system shock saves and mentality check for polymorph other, but tries to replace it with some new balancing methods: The new form can't increase your size by more than one step, can't increase the target's HD (and can't have more than 15 HD), and doesn't get the supernatural or extraordinary abilities of the target. Other than that, it's pretty much identical to AD&D2's polymorph other. Polymorph self, on the other hand, has received a massive power-up because it's functionally identical to polymorph other except the caster can change their form multiple times during the duration of the spell.

3.5 tosses out the old tradition of polymorph spells almost entirely, but most of the changes actually served to make the spell even more powerful as a combat buff: More drawbacks are removed from the spell (like the Will save to avoid disorientation found in 3.0) and the target is granted the extraordinary abilities of the new form. (Looking at the 3.0 spell next to the 3.5 spell, it's almost impossible to figure out what the 3.5 designers were thinking with this one. The reduction in duration was implemented on buffs across the board; it's unclear why they felt this would justify massively increasing the utility and power of polymorph.)
 

pemerton

Legend
AD&D polymorph was pretty weak. I don't recall it giving ability score bonuses. Maybe it gave multiple attacks and base AC, which could presumably go out of control, but it was nowhere near as strong as the 3.x version.
It's been a while - maybe [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION] can confirm - but my memory is that Polymorph Other hits all stats but for hit points, but triggers a system shock check plus a chance of mental change; while Polymorph Self has no system shock check, but ony affects movement.
 

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