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What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?

Hussar

Legend
[MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION]
I think sensible limitations could be constructed using Knowledge checks as suggested elsewhere, and incorporating Knowledge DCs into creature stat bocks (not unlike what the late 3.5 books did) as well as by putting sensible modifiers in the knowledge skills themselves. Essentially a rarity system for monsters. In this respect, the ever-expanding suite of monsters is no bigger a problem with regards to polymorph/summoning than any new expansion is to the game as a whole.

Do we simply assume that every monster in the original manual lives in the same area and is common and well-known? Do we assume that when a new monster book comes out, the monsters were always there and are suddenly being encountered now? Answering those questions sensibly can help us deal with the polymotph cherry-picking, among many other things.

The problem with this approach though is that it becomes so campaign dependent. For example, a campaign that stays in roughly the same geographic area (more or less) means that the caster IS going to know every single monster that lives in that area pretty well. So, the knowledge thing doesn't work as well. Granted, they can't totally cherry pick, but, given the variety of monsters that live in a particular region, the caster can certainly cherry pick from that list.

And, of course, once the DM starts chucking monsters at the party, he has to keep in the back of his mind, "Hey, if I use this Behir, that means that the wizard will be able to polymorph into it."

Additionally, in D&D, where wizards have rather lengthy summoning lists, it probably isn't that hard to find some pretty decent things to polymorph into.

Lastly, the longer a given campaign goes, the more powerful polymorphing will become, related to the monsters the DM uses. This means that it gets really, really hard to balance.

Never minding what happens when the wizard player just gets really lucky and nails that knowledge check for some reason and gets some really cheezy polymorph shape. Do you turn around and take the success away?
 

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Loonook

First Post
Let us see the skill checks required for various beasties:

Arcana: Constructs, Dragons, Magical Beasts.
Dungeoneering: Aberrations, Oozes.
Local: Humanoids (Native local humanoids probably)
Nature: Animals, Fey, Giants, Monstrous Humanoids, Plants, Vermin.
Religion: Undead.
Planes: Outsiders, Elementals.

Now, per my understanding of best combat forms for Polymorph? We're looking at Dungeoneering The Planes, and Arcana being the best choices for Knowledge checks. What if we put the checks at Double HD + 15? DC: 33 easy to hit between lvl. 6-10*?

Of course you could just not use Behirs...

*- We really need to get rid of Moment of Prescience.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

EDIT: Summoning would have to be fixed in some form also. I must say the idea of being able to call on random beasts is sort of irritating also, though I would encourage unique summoning lists in campaigns of course.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
The problem with this approach though is that it becomes so campaign dependent.
That's true to some extent, but I don't see that it's a problem. Lots of abilities are highly campaign dependent.

For example, turning undead, a classic D&D ability, is wildly campaign dependent. So are animal companions. So are most skills.

For example, a campaign that stays in roughly the same geographic area (more or less) means that the caster IS going to know every single monster that lives in that area pretty well. So, the knowledge thing doesn't work as well. Granted, they can't totally cherry pick, but, given the variety of monsters that live in a particular region, the caster can certainly cherry pick from that list.
I don't know if that's true. You don't get bonus knowledge ranks for living in an area. Personally, I don't know the wildlife in my area all that well, and I've lived here my whole life, got a degree in biology at a liberal arts college, and enjoy casual hiking. I think you're being too generous here (though some DMs might be that generous). When we're talking about enforcing requirements for polymorph, I think you should need some in-depth knowledge of the target, not merely having heard its name; otherwise it's not a strong enough limitation.

And, of course, once the DM starts chucking monsters at the party, he has to keep in the back of his mind, "Hey, if I use this Behir, that means that the wizard will be able to polymorph into it."
That is an interesting consideration. Again, I don't see a problem.

Additionally, in D&D, where wizards have rather lengthy summoning lists, it probably isn't that hard to find some pretty decent things to polymorph into.
Summoning lists could probably use some more restrictions too.

Lastly, the longer a given campaign goes, the more powerful polymorphing will become, related to the monsters the DM uses. This means that it gets really, really hard to balance.
True. Polymorph is never going to be easy to balance, unless you gut it. I think it's too classic to do that.

Never minding what happens when the wizard player just gets really lucky and nails that knowledge check for some reason and gets some really cheezy polymorph shape. Do you turn around and take the success away?
No. The point of the knowledge check isn't to ban particularly powerful forms; it's to restrict the number of different forms a character has access to. What really makes the spell difficult is the variety of things it can do. Limiting access to that one powerful form is a different matter. Restricting access by hit dice is already in there and does that pretty well. So does restricting access to the creature's full suite of supernatural abilities until the caster gets Shapechange.

The point of the knowledge check is to cut back on casters being able to say "Hey, look, some fire elementals. What monsters in the manual are immune to fire?" Cherry-picking the ideal form for a situation. That still can happen to some extent, but is curtailed.
 



billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Polymorph is balanceable in 3.x, like this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph and follow the links to Beast Shape and Form of the Dragon.

For whatever reason, WotC didn't do this, but Paizo did.

It is a decent solution that is much more carefully measured. It does have drawbacks, though, since polymorphing for utility reasons ends up being less effective. For example, a halfling who polymorphs into an elephant for the strength to clear a forest road won't be as strong as a real elephant. However, there are sometimes things I can be convinced to accept for the benefit of the game.
 

MarkB

Legend
Polymorph is balanceable in 3.x, like this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph and follow the links to Beast Shape and Form of the Dragon.

For whatever reason, WotC didn't do this, but Paizo did.

As I recall, WotC were working towards a revision of the Polymorph spells towards the end. They introduced the Polymorph spell school in the PH3, along with some toned-down transformative spells, and had some design-and-development articles on the subject of redesigning the existing spells.

But that was just before 4e was announced, too late for them to devote much design time to anything else for 3.5e.
 

Hussar

Legend
Looking at the Pathfinder version, they did adopt a lot of the WOTC restrictions on polymorph that came in late in 3e. Also, I notice they strongly limit size and type - which generally is going to get rid of the worst of the cheese.

That's true to some extent, but I don't see that it's a problem. Lots of abilities are highly campaign dependent.

For example, turning undead, a classic D&D ability, is wildly campaign dependent. So are animal companions. So are most skills.

Yes, and those are also problematic. To the point where you have have a dozen or more variant turning rules and animal companion tweaks.

I don't know if that's true. You don't get bonus knowledge ranks for living in an area. Personally, I don't know the wildlife in my area all that well, and I've lived here my whole life, got a degree in biology at a liberal arts college, and enjoy casual hiking. I think you're being too generous here (though some DMs might be that generous). When we're talking about enforcing requirements for polymorph, I think you should need some in-depth knowledge of the target, not merely having heard its name; otherwise it's not a strong enough limitation.

Mostly this was linked to the later idea of the DM using critters in the area. If you stay in one area long enough, you pretty much going to meet all the really dangerous stuff. :D

That is an interesting consideration. Again, I don't see a problem.

Summoning lists could probably use some more restrictions too.

True. Polymorph is never going to be easy to balance, unless you gut it. I think it's too classic to do that.

But, pre-3e polymorph is WAY weaker than the 3e version. The size limitation meant that you couldn't get too big. And, the monsters in pre-3e polymorph had such weak attacks, that any monster shape you took generally wasn't going to be any better than what you could do with spells and were most often quite a bit worse. Particularly for a minimum 7th level caster.

The problem in 3e is that the monsters got jacked up SO much in their basic attack capabilities that losing special abilities isn't that big of a deal. Again, looking at the behir, who cares that you lost that breath weapon when you have a +25 grapple check (give or take because of size and strength), improved grab and swallow whole? Or, better yet, 6 rake attacks for each successful grapple check. Attack, grab, pin, rake until dead. It's ridiculously overpowered.

In 2e or earlier, changing into a behir, which you couldn't actually do since it was too big, netted you 2d4 damage bite and six attacks (using your wizard THAC0) for a d6 each. Nice (and illegal let's not forget) but hardly any more overpowering than many other 4th level Magic-User spells.

No. The point of the knowledge check isn't to ban particularly powerful forms; it's to restrict the number of different forms a character has access to. What really makes the spell difficult is the variety of things it can do. Limiting access to that one powerful form is a different matter. Restricting access by hit dice is already in there and does that pretty well. So does restricting access to the creature's full suite of supernatural abilities until the caster gets Shapechange.

The point of the knowledge check is to cut back on casters being able to say "Hey, look, some fire elementals. What monsters in the manual are immune to fire?" Cherry-picking the ideal form for a situation. That still can happen to some extent, but is curtailed.

Note, you wouldn't gain immunities with a Polymorph spell. But, I do disagree that the problem is cherry picking for situation. The problem is that some forms are just so good that they are ridiculously overpowered. Heck, even a Troll is a nasty, nasty form. You can pump out 50+ points of damage per round with a bog standard Troll. Again, way too much damage for the spell level.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Note, you wouldn't gain immunities with a Polymorph spell. But, I do disagree that the problem is cherry picking for situation. The problem is that some forms are just so good that they are ridiculously overpowered. Heck, even a Troll is a nasty, nasty form. You can pump out 50+ points of damage per round with a bog standard Troll. Again, way too much damage for the spell level.
I can see a balance problem here, but the bottom line is that if a monster isn't balanced as a polymorph form, it probably isn't balanced as a monster. Even in 3.5, monsters aren't constructed similarly enough to characters that you can compare them directly; i.e. there are too many "level 6" monsters that are more powerful than characters of that level, such as the troll, because of various metagame considerations.

The bottom line is that balancing those monsters and placing sensible limits on polymorph such that you can't change into things more powerful overall than yourself is what should be happening.

Yes, and those are also problematic. To the point where you have have a dozen or more variant turning rules and animal companion tweaks.
Oh, they're definitely problematic. Trying to take a melange of fantasy fiction that was written without the considerations required for an rpg, and translate it into an rpg, that's always going to be problematic. Nothing wrong with tossing around a bunch of varied ideas at solutions.
 

Hussar

Legend
I can see a balance problem here, but the bottom line is that if a monster isn't balanced as a polymorph form, it probably isn't balanced as a monster. Even in 3.5, monsters aren't constructed similarly enough to characters that you can compare them directly; i.e. there are too many "level 6" monsters that are more powerful than characters of that level, such as the troll, because of various metagame considerations.

But, in 3e, a monster wasn't "level 6", he was CR 6. And CR does not relate whatsoever to level. CR is a measure of how hard this thing is to kill versus a party of four of a given level. So a Troll (CR 5) is a moderate challenge to a 5th level party.

It speaks nothing to how this thing works as a PC. That's Level Adjustment. And given that a 1st level PC troll is equivalent to a 12th level PC (whether that's actually true or not is a matter of debate, but, that's where it's pegged), I'd say it's likely way out of line for a 7th level wizard to polymorph into.

Now, I have no problem with a troll as a CR 5 creature. It's about right. A 5th level party should be able to take a troll without too much trouble in a straight up fight. I wouldn't say that a troll is unbalanced.

Most monsters are fairly well balanced. A Behir is a CR 8 critter, and probably pretty reasonable at that. Might be a bit on the high side of CR 8, but not CR 9, most likely. But, in the hands of a player, it's much, much more powerful.

The bottom line is that balancing those monsters and placing sensible limits on polymorph such that you can't change into things more powerful overall than yourself is what should be happening.

Oh, they're definitely problematic. Trying to take a melange of fantasy fiction that was written without the considerations required for an rpg, and translate it into an rpg, that's always going to be problematic. Nothing wrong with tossing around a bunch of varied ideas at solutions.

Yeah, you could go that route actually. Drop the monsters down a large notch and make them a lot more similar to their AD&D counterparts. Would require a LOT of reworking to achieve though.
 

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