D&D 5E Wizards Do Suck;)

[tetrasodium]

I was having a hard time understanding what you were getting at, which is why I said what it seemed like you were saying. I wasn't ignoring anything.

No you ignored it by not answering the question about consequences.

Skill gaps in 5e don't matter much by RAW due to bounded accuracy and low DCs, which is why I've brought back trained vs. untrained. Proficiency matters, even if the untrained PC has a higher bonus due to stats.

They can't matter for a lot more reason than that.

Princess/vip target to save is harmed or killed by a skill gap?.. that's going to maybe make some NPCs not like the party or even give them trouble sure... so what? The PCs don't need anything from the world beyond starting gear by design and the only gear hurdle is a one and done thing once they have magic weapons.

Terrible ritual goes off kick starting some apocalypse because of a skill gap? Again... so what? The game is designed so sleeping six hours in a ditch in the rain is no different from spending a month in the emperor's palatial honeymoon suites with an army of servants catering to every need... so what if the apocalypse starts, MOAR content to kill is closed now and if it's bad enough the players can even shrug off snt ill will caused by letting the princess die or get injured in the ritual they couldn't stop.


5e is designed to cater to the exclusive needs of a very bizarre white room of a tiny group who must have full skill coverage without trying and must never resort to plugging critical gaps with magic items or adventuring around them. It makes skill gaps in a good sized group to be nearly impossible and completely irrelevant when they happen.

 

[ECMO3]

The overlap will tend to be on things like Athletics, Investigation and Perception, which are the most highly used skills, and don't really step on class identity.

I agree with you about being most used and useful. I don't really agree with the idea of skills and class identity. Some skills are correlated to classes due to the way abilities are tied to classes (Warlocks and Charisma or Wizards and Intelligence), but I don't really believe in thematic skill ties to classes.

With the rules on skill replacement it is pretty easy for any class to get proficiency in any two specific skills they want and they end up being tied to background more than class. For example if you want to play a Wizard with Stealth and Deception proficiency, that is really easy to do. Pick Wizard class, take History and Arcana as your class skills. Then take the sage background and replace History and Arcana in the background with Stealth and Deception.

What is more difficult to do is play say a Wizard with the Performer background with Stealth and Deception. If you want to play a Performer wizard (street magician) you are pretty much stuck with Acrobatics and Performance as two of your skills and then the Wizard list for the other two. There is no way to get say stealth in this combo.

 

[tetrasodium]

I agree with you about being most used and useful. I don't really agree with the idea of skills and class identity. Some skills are correlated to classes due to the way abilities are tied to classes (Warlocks and Charisma or Wizards and Intelligence), but I don't really believe in thematic skill ties to classes.

With the rules on skill replacement it is pretty easy for any class to get proficiency in any two specific skills they want and they end up being tied to background more than class. For example if you want to play a Wizard with Stealth and Deception proficiency, that is really easy to do. Pick Wizard class, take History and Arcana as your class skills. Then take the sage background and replace History and Arcana in the background with Stealth and Deception.

What is more difficult to do is play say a Wizard with the Performer background with Stealth and Deception. If you want to play a Performer wizard (street magician) you are pretty much stuck with Acrobatics and Performance as two of your skills and then the Wizard list for the other two. There is no way to get say stealth in this combo.

Pretty sure the bar is even lower. I don't think that the PC you describe even needs to take history or arcana given the wording on backgrounds proficiencies on phb125 even before getting to customizing a background later on the same page. The way it's written I'm pretty sure that PC could take stealth & deception from wizard plus any other pair of skills from background as long as there are two skills offered by each. Because of the future tense word would without an "after taking" or similar clause the gates are left wide.

 

[ECMO3]

That's a better way to do it, but I still think it's unnecessary, given how many skills are floating around a party of 4. There are better ways to go than to step on the toes of other classes when you don't have to, and which are going to be more effective.

Those other classes are not going to be a lot better, and in general they are probably not going to be better at all. The character above has a +9 Nature AND Survival, a +7 Acrobatics AND Athletics and a +12 Deception AND Persuasion, +9 Perception AND Investigation with a +5 to +8 in every other skill.

The party's Barbarian might be slightly better in Athetics, but the character above has typical Barbarians beat in every other skill on the Barbarian list, and has him beat by quite a bit on a most of them (Nature, Survival, Perception and Investigation). Same with a Ranger or Paladin or Fighter or Cleric or just about any traditional build other than a Bard.

Moreover the idea that other classes have to be allowed to be the best at something is silly. If you want your Paladin to be better than my Rogue at social skills and Religion and medicine then boost Charisma to 20 and Intelligence to 14 and take a feat that gives you expertise so you can actually be better me. That is doable and failing to do that is a build choice.

Otherwise if your Paladin takes GWM and a strength ASI then he is stepping on MY TOES when he tries to use his +7 persuasion when I am sporting a +12, or his +3 Religion when I have a +5 .... go smite someone because that is "your thing" as you built your character for maximum strength and damage.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree with you about being most used and useful. I don't really agree with the idea of skills and class identity. Some skills are correlated to classes due to the way abilities are tied to classes (Warlocks and Charisma or Wizards and Intelligence), but I don't really believe in thematic skill ties to classes.

When I say class identity, I'm talking about themes. When you think of arcana knowledge, you don't think of fighter, paladins or most clerics(gods of magic being an exception). You think of wizards and sorcerers. Maybe artificers if that class is being used.

With the rules on skill replacement it is pretty easy for any class to get proficiency in any two specific skills they want and they end up being tied to background more than class. For example if you want to play a Wizard with Stealth and Deception proficiency, that is really easy to do. Pick Wizard class, take History and Arcana as your class skills. Then take the sage background and replace History and Arcana in the background with Stealth and Deception.

Hmm. We don't use the skill replacement optional rules. We would not allow that sage replacement in any case. Sages...........are............not.........specialized...........in...............stealth/deception. That is a knowledge/education background. That's just a player trying to cheese the system. If you want to be a wizard with stealth and deception, you will need to either find an existing background that has both or create one where both make sense. Likely an underworld type background of some sort.

 

[Maxperson]

Those other classes are not going to be a lot better, and in general they are probably not going to be better at all. The character above has a +9 Nature AND Survival, a +7 Acrobatics AND Athletics and a +12 Deception AND Persuasion, +9 Perception AND Investigation with a +5 to +8 in every other skill.

I was unclear about "better." Better being other options. There are far better feats and class combinations that will result in a better character than trying to force skills by wasting feats and a specific multiclass combo. And with +1 or +2 being pretty meaningless in 5e, a skill focused PC that is a bit better in a skill than the class taking a skill that matches his primary stat is a waste of effort. Better to take a feat that will mean something and that someone else in the party can't do.

Moreover the idea that other classes have to be allowed to be the best at something is silly. If you want your Paladin to be better than my Rogue at social skills and Religion and medicine then boost Charisma to 20 and Intelligence to 14 and take a feat that gives you expertise so you can actually be better me. That is doable and failing to do that is a build choice.

Why? You can just take other feats that make you a better overall character than you would be by taking skills that step on the paladin's toes. Why gimp yourself AND step on someone else's toes?

Otherwise if your Paladin takes GWM and a strength ASI then he is stepping on MY TOES when he tries to use his +7 persuasion when I am sporting a +12, or his +3 Religion when I have a +5 .... go smite someone because that is "your thing" as you built your character for maximum strength and damage.

If you are a rogue, religion isn't "your thing" no matter what your bonus is, unless you chose the acolyte background which makes you a priest. Then it's your thing via background. High bonus =/= "your thing." Theme does.

That +12 bonus steps on the paladin's thing, even if he only has +3.

 

[ECMO3]

When I say class identity, I'm talking about themes. When you think of arcana knowledge, you don't think of fighter, paladins or most clerics(gods of magic being an exception). You think of wizards and sorcerers. Maybe artificers if that class is being used.

See in the games I play you do think of fighters, if they have that skill and the ability to be good at it.

Hmm. We don't use the skill replacement optional rules. We would not allow that sage replacement in any case.

It is not an "optional" rule likes feats or multiclassing. If you are not allowing this then you are not playing RAW, you are homebrewing. Which is fine, but that is why your game is different.

Sages...........are............not.........specialized...........in...............stealth/deception.

Sure, they are specialized in Arcana and History which RAW they can replace with any skill if they have proficiency in those through another method.

That is a knowledge/education background. That's just a player trying to cheese the system.

No it isn't. You already had knowlege of History and Arcana when you showed up at the library, so you didn't really spend much effort on that stuff and instead you spent your time skulking around the areas with the really old restricted texts that were "off limits" to apprentices and trying to explain yourway out of it on the rare occasions that you were caught.

If you want to be a wizard with stealth and deception, you will need to either find an existing background that has both or create one where both make sense.

RAW you do not. This is homebrew if you enforce this.

 

[Maxperson]

See in the games I play you do think of fighters, if they have that skill and the ability to be good at it.

You are conflating "skilled" with "thematically appropriate."

Sure you can give a fighter a 20 intelligence, proficiency and expertise at arcana, but that will never make it appropriate thematically for the Champion or Battlemaster that does it.

It is not an "optional" rule likes feats or multiclassing. If you are not allowing this then you are not playing RAW, you are homebrewing. Which is fine, but that is why your game is different.

Where in the PHB does it say that players can just swap out class or background skills like they want to?

No it isn't. You already had knowlege of History and Arcana when you showed up at the library, so you didn't really spend much effort on that stuff and instead you spent your time skulking around the areas with the really old restricted texts that were "off limits" to apprentices and trying to explain yourway out of it on the rare occasions that you were caught.

No dude. You get history and arcana as a sage because that's where you got those skills. You do not get "skulking" and "explaining yourself" from being a sage. You get it from being an urchin or something. You are trying to cheese two different backgrounds into one background there. The second skulking background you are adding is not ever going to be a part of the sage background. Just as sage is never going to be a part of the urchin background, even if the urchin spent time sneaking into college classes to learn.

Unless you're talking about what happens if your background gives you a duplicate skill. Even then, the new skill isn't a part of the background. It's just designed so that you don't get gimped out of a skill. It's not the sage background giving you stealth. It's that you duplicated arcana or history and need to pick something different.

RAW you do not. This is homebrew if you enforce this.

Show me the core book(PHB, MM or DMG) RAW that allows it. Splatbooks are all 100% optional. None of it is RAW.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Customizing a background is indeed in the PHB as a base option:

 

[ECMO3]

I was unclear about "better." Better being other options. There are far better feats and class combinations that will result in a better character than trying to force skills by wasting feats and a specific multiclass combo.

I can do most of that with no feats at all and the multiclass I mentioned itself is VERY viable as a character and better than most straight martials in most pillars of the game

If you are saying a Rogue-Bard multiclass is a bad character, then any Fighter or Barbarian is a bad character because such a multiclass it is going to play a lot better than those characters will (assuming identical starting abilities).

And with +1 or +2 being pretty meaningless in 5e, a skill focused PC that is a bit better in a skill than the class taking a skill that matches his primary stat is a waste of effort.

Not true, especially when you consider things like climbing are often needed by most characters. Moreover with expertise I can beat a character with a higher main stat unless I completely dumped it.

Better to take a feat that will mean something and that someone else in the party can't do.

Like I said above I can do that build without any feats and still be better than most other characters at the skills that matter.

Without any feats at all I have 14 of 18 skills at 8th level and half of my PB through Jack of all trades in the 4 skills I don't have.

Why? You can just take other feats that make you a better overall character than you would be by taking skills that step on the paladin's toes. Why gimp yourself AND step on someone else's toes?

Because I don't need a feat to be BETTER than the Paladin, not just equal better! More to the point if the Paladin wants this to be his thing then HE should take a feat so it is, or multiclass, AND prioritize Charisma over strength.

D&D is full of choices and if you choose to build a weak character in one area you should not whine when other characters are better than you in that area!

If you are a rogue, religion isn't "your thing" no matter what your bonus is, unless you chose the acolyte background which makes you a priest.

That is nonsense. Several races get ANY proficiency through race and a Bard gets ANY proficiency as his class ability and either a Rogue or a Bard can take expertise in ANY of their skill proficiencies.

So as a point of fact, RAW Religion IS a Rogues thing if he gets that proficiency somehow (like through Race) and takes expertise in it. Further a Bard gets jack of all trades making anything "his thing" to a degree.

Then it's your thing via background. High bonus =/= "your thing." Theme does.

Exactly. My Rouge invested time and effort to know a lot about Religion, giving up things like extra attack to do it and pouring over the church history in the local thieves guild library. Your Paladin showed up to the church every day as part of his study and ignored to the preachers while he played with his sword.

That +12 bonus steps on the paladin's thing, even if he only has +3.

If the Paladin wants to be better he should invest to be better and if he does, he will be better.

Hell the Paladin can go with a 13 Dex and a max Charisma and multiclass into Rogue at level 2 and have me beat all day long and at every level. If he CHOOSES not to do this and he tries to dominate the social situations he is stepping on MY TOES!