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What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6073835" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>If you're attempting to sunder the fighter's sword that's a serious problem for the fighter. If you're in melee with a wizard you normally attempt to sunder the <em>wizard</em>. Sundering the wizard's wand keeps the wizard alive another round.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Um... yes it is. Wizards laugh at 3.5 golems; practically the entire conjuration school ignores magic resistance and magic immunity. This is the big problem - the answer to magic resistance is ... More Magic. On the other hand the weird idea you can't knock a zombie's head off utterly nerfs rogues. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. On the other hand a lot of DMs don't like killing PCs - and the purpose of anti-wizard tactics is to kill <em>fast</em>. Being killed in the surprise round is a negative play experience (which is a huge advantage of 4e hit points).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The idea that the PCs should deliberately not buy items that make their lives easier, and all buy the useful little ones like the Handy Haversack if they are available is IMO metagaming. </p><p></p><p>"Why are you not wearing this hiking rucksack that weighs nothing, sorts everything in it, and keeps it all safe. It's not as if it's expensive."</p><p>"Because it would be cheesy."</p><p></p><p>Right.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Believe it or not, a lot of DMs like to say "Yes" to their players most of the time. It's a principle of improv drama and of a lot of modern game design and makes the whole session flow better in most styles. (If you're playing a WFRP style crapsack world, things are different). The default assumption should be that unless the player is trying to blatantly violate the spirit of the rules (which they aren't), the DM should be able to say yes (or roll the dice) to the player doing anything within the rules and only start to worry when the PCs step outside the scope of the rules.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And what he's dealing with in this case is <em>sub-standard game design</em>. The appropriate plan for that is to put the book back on the shelf.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Pretty much this. And 24 is an <em>extremely</em> narrow playstyle.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That depends. Damage needs to scale because monsters scale. Creation effects or illusions don't. Invisibility is only ever going to become obselete when monsters routinely have See Invisible, Tremorsense, or the rest.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Very much this <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>The important numbers to remember are 25GP for a level 1 scroll, 150GP for a level 2 scroll, 750GP for a level 1 wand, and 3000GP for a level 2 wand. These are the important numbers. For comparison, masterwork sword is 300GP and change (or the price of 12 level 1 scrolls) and masterwork armour is in excess of 150GP.</p><p></p><p>Level 2 WBL in 3.5 is 900GP (<a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/character-creation" target="_blank">Pathfinder</a> is about 10% higher <a href="http://www.dndarchive.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=19&id=11911&Itemid=50" target="_blank">than 3.X</a>) and the wizard doesn't have to waste money on armour or a sword (rememeber that they are ultimately expendible as they will be upgraded. Assume the wizard wants to be ridiculously prepared; 20 scrolls (which is two per encounter the wizard should meet at that level). 500GP if shop-bought. And it cost the wizard less than the fighter's masterwork breastplate and two handed sword. The wizard has enough scrolls to burn two per encounter in addition to normal spellcasting. (Which they probably won't).</p><p></p><p>In fact:</p><p></p><p>Level 3: 2700 GP = 18 level 2 scrolls</p><p>Level 5: 9000 GP = 24 level 3 scrolls</p><p>Level 7: 19,000 GP = 27 level 4 scrolls</p><p>Level 9: 36,000 GP = 36 level 5 scrolls</p><p>Level 11: 66,000 GP = 40 level 6 scrolls</p><p>Level 13: 110,000 GP = 48 level 7 scrolls</p><p>Level 15: 200,000 GP = 66 level 8 scrolls</p><p>Level 17: 340,000 GP = 88 level 9 scrolls</p><p></p><p>OK, so it's not that simple. Your money only increases by somewhere between a third and a half at each level. But remember I'm only looking at the value of <em>top level spells</em> in the calculation above. 100 1st level scrolls costs 2500 GP and a wand each of knock and invisibility (making the thief fume for about half a dozen levels) costs 6000 GP.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or they go for full spectrum dominance. But yes. Assume the wizard who expects to expend one top level scroll plus a handfull of chaff <em>per encounter</em>. And that in addition to their three top level spells per day. 10 encounters per level. This gets ugly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No caster <em>with a growing spell list</em>. I have no problem with the War Wizards and Healers of this world as classes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6073835, member: 87792"] If you're attempting to sunder the fighter's sword that's a serious problem for the fighter. If you're in melee with a wizard you normally attempt to sunder the [I]wizard[/I]. Sundering the wizard's wand keeps the wizard alive another round. Um... yes it is. Wizards laugh at 3.5 golems; practically the entire conjuration school ignores magic resistance and magic immunity. This is the big problem - the answer to magic resistance is ... More Magic. On the other hand the weird idea you can't knock a zombie's head off utterly nerfs rogues. Agreed. On the other hand a lot of DMs don't like killing PCs - and the purpose of anti-wizard tactics is to kill [I]fast[/I]. Being killed in the surprise round is a negative play experience (which is a huge advantage of 4e hit points). The idea that the PCs should deliberately not buy items that make their lives easier, and all buy the useful little ones like the Handy Haversack if they are available is IMO metagaming. "Why are you not wearing this hiking rucksack that weighs nothing, sorts everything in it, and keeps it all safe. It's not as if it's expensive." "Because it would be cheesy." Right. Believe it or not, a lot of DMs like to say "Yes" to their players most of the time. It's a principle of improv drama and of a lot of modern game design and makes the whole session flow better in most styles. (If you're playing a WFRP style crapsack world, things are different). The default assumption should be that unless the player is trying to blatantly violate the spirit of the rules (which they aren't), the DM should be able to say yes (or roll the dice) to the player doing anything within the rules and only start to worry when the PCs step outside the scope of the rules. And what he's dealing with in this case is [I]sub-standard game design[/I]. The appropriate plan for that is to put the book back on the shelf. Pretty much this. And 24 is an [I]extremely[/I] narrow playstyle. That depends. Damage needs to scale because monsters scale. Creation effects or illusions don't. Invisibility is only ever going to become obselete when monsters routinely have See Invisible, Tremorsense, or the rest. Very much this :) The important numbers to remember are 25GP for a level 1 scroll, 150GP for a level 2 scroll, 750GP for a level 1 wand, and 3000GP for a level 2 wand. These are the important numbers. For comparison, masterwork sword is 300GP and change (or the price of 12 level 1 scrolls) and masterwork armour is in excess of 150GP. Level 2 WBL in 3.5 is 900GP ([URL="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/character-creation"]Pathfinder[/URL] is about 10% higher [URL="http://www.dndarchive.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=19&id=11911&Itemid=50"]than 3.X[/URL]) and the wizard doesn't have to waste money on armour or a sword (rememeber that they are ultimately expendible as they will be upgraded. Assume the wizard wants to be ridiculously prepared; 20 scrolls (which is two per encounter the wizard should meet at that level). 500GP if shop-bought. And it cost the wizard less than the fighter's masterwork breastplate and two handed sword. The wizard has enough scrolls to burn two per encounter in addition to normal spellcasting. (Which they probably won't). In fact: Level 3: 2700 GP = 18 level 2 scrolls Level 5: 9000 GP = 24 level 3 scrolls Level 7: 19,000 GP = 27 level 4 scrolls Level 9: 36,000 GP = 36 level 5 scrolls Level 11: 66,000 GP = 40 level 6 scrolls Level 13: 110,000 GP = 48 level 7 scrolls Level 15: 200,000 GP = 66 level 8 scrolls Level 17: 340,000 GP = 88 level 9 scrolls OK, so it's not that simple. Your money only increases by somewhere between a third and a half at each level. But remember I'm only looking at the value of [I]top level spells[/I] in the calculation above. 100 1st level scrolls costs 2500 GP and a wand each of knock and invisibility (making the thief fume for about half a dozen levels) costs 6000 GP. Or they go for full spectrum dominance. But yes. Assume the wizard who expects to expend one top level scroll plus a handfull of chaff [I]per encounter[/I]. And that in addition to their three top level spells per day. 10 encounters per level. This gets ugly. No caster [I]with a growing spell list[/I]. I have no problem with the War Wizards and Healers of this world as classes. [/QUOTE]
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What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?
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