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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6074390" data-attributes="member: 87792">Which in 3.5 means that you have to be about second level - and not count cantrips. I don't think I could better underline one of the core problems of the wizard.&nbsp; &quot;A wizard who memorizes this spell gives up other better useful spells&quot;.&nbsp; But the rogue, naturally, can't do any of the better useful things a wizard can so he pitches in by picking locks and allowing the wizard fun toys.&nbsp; 4e Knock wins here - it takes a minute to cast when the rogue can have the lock open in seconds.The point is the rogue should be better at picking locks than the wizard. That you have to impose metagame limits on very basic roleplaying just points to a problem with the system.No rogue in the party has never stopped me either.&nbsp; If necessary the PCs can use a crow bar or even a battering ram.&nbsp; Picking locks merely allows stealth and speed.&nbsp; An unpickable lock can still be forced.&nbsp; So the entire argument vanishes in a puff of smoke..&quot;If you don't want to be special and powerful don't play a fighter.&quot;&nbsp; Right.As for &quot;An epic level fighter can mow down most armies&quot;, Giant in the Playground had a series of duels.&nbsp; Level 13 wizard vs Level 20 fighter.&nbsp; The wizard was seriously nerfed - no teleporting away, no prebuffing, no scrying.&nbsp; And the fighter did win one - but that had nothing to do with being a fighter rather than being a glorified commoner with three quarters of a million GP worth of equipment.&nbsp; The level 20 fighter wasn't a match for the level 13 wizard, despite the wealth.And for an army?&nbsp; 1 arrow in 20 from the commoners is going to hit.&nbsp; Doing about d8 damage.&nbsp; 400 archers with light crossbows?&nbsp; That level 20 fighter is going down like Jacques Cousteau.The squishiest team member can protect himself.&nbsp; A high level wizard is a hell of a lot harder to kill than a high level fighter (who just gets punked by something against his will save).&nbsp; The fighter's schtick is waving a pointy bit of metal around.&nbsp; This can be fun.&nbsp; A big part of the wizard's schtick is making pointy bits of metal irrelevant.&nbsp; This too can be fun.&nbsp; Unfortunately, put the two together and there are problems.To put things another way, in the 1970s Pong looked like a fun computer game. As computer games go, a high level fighter is still playing pong - the wizard, meanwhile, is carrying a smartphone loaded with games.&nbsp; Including pong (Tenser's Transformation) if the wizard can be bothered.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6074390, member: 87792"] Which in 3.5 means that you have to be about second level - and not count cantrips. I don't think I could better underline one of the core problems of the wizard. "A wizard who memorizes this spell gives up other better useful spells". But the rogue, naturally, can't do any of the better useful things a wizard can so he pitches in by picking locks and allowing the wizard fun toys. 4e Knock wins here - it takes a minute to cast when the rogue can have the lock open in seconds. The point is [I]the rogue should be better at picking locks than the wizard[/I]. That you have to impose metagame limits on very basic roleplaying just points to a problem with the system. No rogue in the party has never stopped me either. If necessary the PCs can use a crow bar or even a battering ram. Picking locks merely allows [I]stealth and speed.[/I] An unpickable lock can still be forced. So the entire argument vanishes in a puff of smoke.. "If you don't want to be special and powerful don't play a fighter." Right. As for "An epic level fighter can mow down most armies", Giant in the Playground had a series of duels. Level 13 wizard vs Level 20 fighter. The wizard was seriously nerfed - no teleporting away, no prebuffing, no scrying. And the fighter did win one - but that had nothing to do with being a fighter rather than being a glorified commoner with three quarters of a million GP worth of equipment. The level 20 fighter wasn't a match for the level 13 wizard, despite the wealth. And for an army? 1 arrow in 20 from the commoners is going to hit. Doing about d8 damage. 400 archers with light crossbows? That level 20 fighter is going down like Jacques Cousteau. The squishiest team member [I]can protect himself[/I]. A high level wizard is a hell of a lot harder to kill than a high level fighter (who just gets punked by something against his will save). The fighter's schtick is waving a pointy bit of metal around. This can be fun. A big part of the wizard's schtick is making pointy bits of metal [I]irrelevant[/I]. This too can be fun. Unfortunately, put the two together and there are problems. To put things another way, in the 1970s [I]Pong[/I] looked like a fun computer game. As computer games go, a high level fighter is still playing pong - the wizard, meanwhile, is carrying a smartphone loaded with games. Including pong (Tenser's Transformation) if the wizard can be bothered. [/QUOTE]

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