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What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?
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<blockquote data-quote="Elf Witch" data-source="post: 6074543" data-attributes="member: 9037"><p>[_quote] It is not the same at all as I said people train bears without magic. The keep the bears well fed when there is an attack you will usually find extenuating circumstances like the bear was sick or something or someone was stressing it out. The white tiger that attacked Roy had been distracted by a woman who had a elaborate hair do and reached out her arm to pet the tiger. Roy stepped in front of the tiger fell and the tiger grabbed him by the neck. Most think that since he did not grab and shake he was not trying to kill Roy. They think that the tiger who had been with him since a cub was trying to drag him away to safety like a mother with a cub. </p><p></p><p>Since bears do swim and will dive then as I said earlier I would allow the druid to spend some time training the bear to stay under water it would not be that hard to do. But again there is a difference between diving for food and spending and extended amount of time under water and even fighting under water. </p><p></p><p>As a DM I don't want to stop my players from having fun but that does not mean that you can't give them challenges. Because of the size of most animal companions there may be places they can't go simply because they don't fit or they lack the physical ability to over come obstacles a horse cannot climb up the side of a mountain. So it might make better sense to leave it until you come back. They are not familiars who if something happens to them is going to effect the druid/ranger in any way other then a role playing way if something happens to them. [_/quote] </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[_quote]Heal is only good for stabilizing not for getting a PC up and being able to function. If they don't have a scroll or potion then they are out of luck. But I would hate to say oh you have a scroll of heal sorry can't use it or you have exactly the scroll you need to move on sorry can't use it. I would much rather see limits like you can only cast x amount of scrolls a day than tie it to spell slots. </p><p></p><p>I think one of the biggest mistake is the way the game assumes that every village of a certain size has X amount if items. This should be left up to the DM depending on how high a magic level game he wants to run. There should be guidelines as examples to help DMs but it should be clear that these are guidelines. I rarely allow magic items to be found any place other than larger cities that have magic schools or guilds. </p><p></p><p>Yes keys work and so do other things I just like having the option of having a knock spell for somethings. What if they can't find a key or the the other ways are to noisy. Having a scroll of knock can come in handy and if you want to make it hard to use make it take longer to work. </p><p></p><p>I have to be honest here in 30 years of play I have never played in a game where the mage who has used their powerful spells before hand out shine the fighters on a regular basis. I have yet to see it happening that often in a game where a DM has designed encounters that require the entire party to be able to contribute to succeed. You got a mage that likes to use save or die spells then let him but hold back some of the NPCs make him use them up on the first few waves then send in some more. </p><p></p><p> I agree that a DM should not be looking for ways to negate abilities all the time. But there is nothing wrong with taking players out of their comfort zones either now and again. I played in a campaign where there were these traveling mage storms that made magic act wonky. We got hit with one just as a kraken attacked the ship we were on. We found that our magic would work but we were taking blow back damage from the spell basically we took half the damage we dealt. We had a choice take damage or attack using mundane methods. The wizard after taking the damage started firing crossbolts at the thing. In the end it was the fighter, paladin and the monk who did most of the damage with the paladin in a last ditch desperate attempt threw his most powerful spell prepared to die if necessary to save the ship. Not one of us felt that DM had screwed us over we loved the encounter because it was challenging and even the player who was willing to sacrifice his PC loved it. It was an epic battle that was talked about for months. </p><p></p><p>A good DM knows when and how often to throw these kind of encounters at a party. A good DM knows when to nerf the magic users and let the mundanes shine brightly and vice versa it is a matter of planning and knowing what your players want out of the game. [_/quote]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Really absolutely zero I guess then my 21 level wizard back in 2E didn't exist and was a figment of my imagination. [_/quote] </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[_quote] I have seen it done now and then. The example that comes to mind was a cleric who wanted to speak with the dead his god ST Cuthbert told him he could not give him that power because the spirit was in the hands of another god and the cleric would have to petition that god directly. The cleric did and had to bargain doing something for the god in exchange for the spell. [_/quote]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[_quote] Okay say your second level character has six spells. At least one of those is going to be some mind of protection spell that leaves five others. Now since mage armor got nerfed you want to hold a spell back for another encounter so that gives your four so you can chose to use two in two encounters are blow all of them and if you have encounters later in the say use mundane ways that you are not as effective with to find a way to contribute to the party that is hardly over powered. </p><p></p><p>The rogue gets to not only pick locks but also disable traps something the knock spells does not do and he can do on door after door until the cows come home. And he can still use all his combat abilities in combat because they have nothing to do with his pick lock ability. A wizard main ability is casting spells that have to balance casting utility spells with combat spells balance it wrong then they are not as effective as they could or should be. It takes two spells from two different casters to accomplish what a rogue can do and his is not a limited resource. </p><p></p><p>So your party routinely carries crowbars and battering rams? There are times neither will work because you need to break in without a lot of noise or attention breaking into the mayor house with a battering ram is going to draw attention a crowbar makes noise and neither works on a magical lock. There are just times that having the ability to cast knock makes the game less frustrating for the players. </p><p></p><p>That is just so much BS I have played plenty of fighter types and I always felt powerful and special. Yes you are right I could not reorder time and do powerful magical things. But I could swing my weapon with great efficiency mowing down my enemies and I could do this all day without worrying that I had to conserve my resources. I also had the ability to go toe to toe with a powerful bad guy and live because of my sheer amount of hit points. There are times I want to play a physical character a warrior like Xena I don't want to be magical. Other times I do want the power of of a magic. I know players who prefer playing melee types over mages. They don't worry that the mage may be more flashy and more powerful where magic is concerned they enjoy the power that comes with being good at using a weapon. And good DMs build encounters where everyone gets their chance in the spotlight. </p><p></p><p>I remember that and my thought was so what all they proved was that a wizard in a duel who is prepared for that duel is more likely to win against a higher level fighter. But it does not represent what happens in combat I have seen far to many wizards die at the hands of fighters to ever think that a fighter does not have a chance to take down a wizard. Duels are nothing like combat in the game where you have a team working together. I had a wizard taken down by a fighter and rogue who flanked me and I could not get away because I had used up most of my spells already on earlier encounters. I had a couple of scrolls that would have helped but I could not get to them without getting a AOO from both of them. I surrendered and they knocked me out. </p><p></p><p>My experience tells me that as a wizard I need fighter types that I cannot do it alone and I need them to help keep those fighters with their multi attacks and their D8 weapons away from my me and my more limited amount of hit points. </p><p></p><p>So you are claiming that in over 30 years of play we were not having fun and the players who still play 3.5 by the thousands are just to dumb to realize that you can't mix mundane fighters and wizards in the same game and expect their players to have an equally good time. I know to many player who would disagree that they fill that playing a fighter is like playing pong. If you don't like how wizards and fighters work in 3.5 then house rule them or play 4E which sounds closer to how you want to play. Just realize that your experiences and opinions are not universal just like I realize that mine are not universal. [_/quote]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[_quote] Just read what I said above about rogues and all the other things they get to do and it is not about things being more or less important. A rogue who uses his ability to pick locks will still be able to effectively do his job in combat which is to flank and sneak attack. A wizard on the other hand who uses up all their spells on knock then cannot do their job in combat so basically they will having to do what the melee character do which is hit things with a weapon or fire crossbolts and they do this far less effectively than the fighter, cleric, rogue, monk, druid. The rogue will also still be available to use his skill at scouting, picking more locks disabling traps to get to the loot. While the wizard who has blown all their spells on knock can stand their picking their nose and scratching their butt. [_/quote]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elf Witch, post: 6074543, member: 9037"] [_quote] It is not the same at all as I said people train bears without magic. The keep the bears well fed when there is an attack you will usually find extenuating circumstances like the bear was sick or something or someone was stressing it out. The white tiger that attacked Roy had been distracted by a woman who had a elaborate hair do and reached out her arm to pet the tiger. Roy stepped in front of the tiger fell and the tiger grabbed him by the neck. Most think that since he did not grab and shake he was not trying to kill Roy. They think that the tiger who had been with him since a cub was trying to drag him away to safety like a mother with a cub. Since bears do swim and will dive then as I said earlier I would allow the druid to spend some time training the bear to stay under water it would not be that hard to do. But again there is a difference between diving for food and spending and extended amount of time under water and even fighting under water. As a DM I don't want to stop my players from having fun but that does not mean that you can't give them challenges. Because of the size of most animal companions there may be places they can't go simply because they don't fit or they lack the physical ability to over come obstacles a horse cannot climb up the side of a mountain. So it might make better sense to leave it until you come back. They are not familiars who if something happens to them is going to effect the druid/ranger in any way other then a role playing way if something happens to them. [_/quote] [_quote]Heal is only good for stabilizing not for getting a PC up and being able to function. If they don't have a scroll or potion then they are out of luck. But I would hate to say oh you have a scroll of heal sorry can't use it or you have exactly the scroll you need to move on sorry can't use it. I would much rather see limits like you can only cast x amount of scrolls a day than tie it to spell slots. I think one of the biggest mistake is the way the game assumes that every village of a certain size has X amount if items. This should be left up to the DM depending on how high a magic level game he wants to run. There should be guidelines as examples to help DMs but it should be clear that these are guidelines. I rarely allow magic items to be found any place other than larger cities that have magic schools or guilds. Yes keys work and so do other things I just like having the option of having a knock spell for somethings. What if they can't find a key or the the other ways are to noisy. Having a scroll of knock can come in handy and if you want to make it hard to use make it take longer to work. I have to be honest here in 30 years of play I have never played in a game where the mage who has used their powerful spells before hand out shine the fighters on a regular basis. I have yet to see it happening that often in a game where a DM has designed encounters that require the entire party to be able to contribute to succeed. You got a mage that likes to use save or die spells then let him but hold back some of the NPCs make him use them up on the first few waves then send in some more. I agree that a DM should not be looking for ways to negate abilities all the time. But there is nothing wrong with taking players out of their comfort zones either now and again. I played in a campaign where there were these traveling mage storms that made magic act wonky. We got hit with one just as a kraken attacked the ship we were on. We found that our magic would work but we were taking blow back damage from the spell basically we took half the damage we dealt. We had a choice take damage or attack using mundane methods. The wizard after taking the damage started firing crossbolts at the thing. In the end it was the fighter, paladin and the monk who did most of the damage with the paladin in a last ditch desperate attempt threw his most powerful spell prepared to die if necessary to save the ship. Not one of us felt that DM had screwed us over we loved the encounter because it was challenging and even the player who was willing to sacrifice his PC loved it. It was an epic battle that was talked about for months. A good DM knows when and how often to throw these kind of encounters at a party. A good DM knows when to nerf the magic users and let the mundanes shine brightly and vice versa it is a matter of planning and knowing what your players want out of the game. [_/quote] Really absolutely zero I guess then my 21 level wizard back in 2E didn't exist and was a figment of my imagination. [_/quote] [_quote] I have seen it done now and then. The example that comes to mind was a cleric who wanted to speak with the dead his god ST Cuthbert told him he could not give him that power because the spirit was in the hands of another god and the cleric would have to petition that god directly. The cleric did and had to bargain doing something for the god in exchange for the spell. [_/quote] [_quote] Okay say your second level character has six spells. At least one of those is going to be some mind of protection spell that leaves five others. Now since mage armor got nerfed you want to hold a spell back for another encounter so that gives your four so you can chose to use two in two encounters are blow all of them and if you have encounters later in the say use mundane ways that you are not as effective with to find a way to contribute to the party that is hardly over powered. The rogue gets to not only pick locks but also disable traps something the knock spells does not do and he can do on door after door until the cows come home. And he can still use all his combat abilities in combat because they have nothing to do with his pick lock ability. A wizard main ability is casting spells that have to balance casting utility spells with combat spells balance it wrong then they are not as effective as they could or should be. It takes two spells from two different casters to accomplish what a rogue can do and his is not a limited resource. So your party routinely carries crowbars and battering rams? There are times neither will work because you need to break in without a lot of noise or attention breaking into the mayor house with a battering ram is going to draw attention a crowbar makes noise and neither works on a magical lock. There are just times that having the ability to cast knock makes the game less frustrating for the players. That is just so much BS I have played plenty of fighter types and I always felt powerful and special. Yes you are right I could not reorder time and do powerful magical things. But I could swing my weapon with great efficiency mowing down my enemies and I could do this all day without worrying that I had to conserve my resources. I also had the ability to go toe to toe with a powerful bad guy and live because of my sheer amount of hit points. There are times I want to play a physical character a warrior like Xena I don't want to be magical. Other times I do want the power of of a magic. I know players who prefer playing melee types over mages. They don't worry that the mage may be more flashy and more powerful where magic is concerned they enjoy the power that comes with being good at using a weapon. And good DMs build encounters where everyone gets their chance in the spotlight. I remember that and my thought was so what all they proved was that a wizard in a duel who is prepared for that duel is more likely to win against a higher level fighter. But it does not represent what happens in combat I have seen far to many wizards die at the hands of fighters to ever think that a fighter does not have a chance to take down a wizard. Duels are nothing like combat in the game where you have a team working together. I had a wizard taken down by a fighter and rogue who flanked me and I could not get away because I had used up most of my spells already on earlier encounters. I had a couple of scrolls that would have helped but I could not get to them without getting a AOO from both of them. I surrendered and they knocked me out. My experience tells me that as a wizard I need fighter types that I cannot do it alone and I need them to help keep those fighters with their multi attacks and their D8 weapons away from my me and my more limited amount of hit points. So you are claiming that in over 30 years of play we were not having fun and the players who still play 3.5 by the thousands are just to dumb to realize that you can't mix mundane fighters and wizards in the same game and expect their players to have an equally good time. I know to many player who would disagree that they fill that playing a fighter is like playing pong. If you don't like how wizards and fighters work in 3.5 then house rule them or play 4E which sounds closer to how you want to play. Just realize that your experiences and opinions are not universal just like I realize that mine are not universal. [_/quote] [_quote] Just read what I said above about rogues and all the other things they get to do and it is not about things being more or less important. A rogue who uses his ability to pick locks will still be able to effectively do his job in combat which is to flank and sneak attack. A wizard on the other hand who uses up all their spells on knock then cannot do their job in combat so basically they will having to do what the melee character do which is hit things with a weapon or fire crossbolts and they do this far less effectively than the fighter, cleric, rogue, monk, druid. The rogue will also still be available to use his skill at scouting, picking more locks disabling traps to get to the loot. While the wizard who has blown all their spells on knock can stand their picking their nose and scratching their butt. [_/quote] [/QUOTE]
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