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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6074919" data-attributes="member: 22779">I really, really get the feeling in these discussions that those who claim that there isn't a problem have never seen a highly competently played caster.&nbsp; The counter examples are just so bad.&nbsp; Single target save or suck spells?&nbsp; Come on.&nbsp; NeonC nicely shows how ridiculous this is.NeonC brings up a 7th level wizard.&nbsp; That's a character wealth of 16000 gp, on average.&nbsp; A measly 10% of my character wealth (1600 gp - about the price of a +1 sword) nets me about one HUNDRED 1st-3rd level scrolls.&nbsp; NeonC is nice in that he uses half his load out for utility spells.&nbsp; I wouldn't bother.&nbsp; All my utility spells are on scrolls.&nbsp; No one puts combat spells on scrolls because, as was mentioned, you lose actions pulling out scrolls.&nbsp; I have 18 spells per day.&nbsp; I don't NEED combat spells on scrolls.&nbsp; And, because we're talking about utility spells, taking a standard action doesn't matter outside of combat.&nbsp; I have time.&nbsp; Heck the rogue takes minutes to unlock that lock.&nbsp; I unlock it in 6 seconds and I have 99 scrolls left over.And that's not counting wands.&nbsp; So, my 7th level wizard is using scrolls for utility, or possibly medium term buffs (the 10 minute/level stuff that can be cast when you know a combat is coming).&nbsp; All for about 10% of my character wealth.You allow a fighter by 7th level to have a +1 weapon no?&nbsp; That's not considered a problem.&nbsp; So, why is my wizard suddenly a problem?&nbsp; After all, how long does it take to forge a masterwork weapon?&nbsp; Oh, that's right, it's totally believable that the fighter picks up any sword, so long as its masterwork, and gets it enchanted.&nbsp; That's no problem.&nbsp; Like I said, the counter arguments here just boggle my mind.&nbsp; I can totally see why some people don't see the problem if their players have the tactical and strategic sense of concussed badgers.&nbsp; The problem comes when you have a decently competent player sitting at the wheel of a caster.&nbsp; Look, nothing I listed above is abusing the system.&nbsp; This is straight from PHB 1.&nbsp; No additional books, no cherry picking feats and/or spells from fifteen different sources.&nbsp; This is just Caster 101 stuff.&nbsp; This is the problem with these conversations.&nbsp; We wind up spending a dozen pages with people refusing to accept that for some of us, these are actual problems IN OUR GAMES.&nbsp; And telling us to just play the way you play isn't the solution.&nbsp; I don't want to play the way you play.&nbsp; The game is supposed to support multiple playstyles.&nbsp; Telling me to play the way you play is essentially telling me that the game doesn't actually support anything other than your playstyle.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6074919, member: 22779"] I really, really get the feeling in these discussions that those who claim that there isn't a problem have never seen a highly competently played caster. The counter examples are just so bad. Single target save or suck spells? Come on. NeonC nicely shows how ridiculous this is. NeonC brings up a 7th level wizard. That's a character wealth of 16000 gp, on average. A measly 10% of my character wealth (1600 gp - about the price of a +1 sword) nets me about one HUNDRED 1st-3rd level scrolls. NeonC is nice in that he uses half his load out for utility spells. I wouldn't bother. All my utility spells are on scrolls. No one puts combat spells on scrolls because, as was mentioned, you lose actions pulling out scrolls. I have 18 spells per day. I don't NEED combat spells on scrolls. And, because we're talking about utility spells, taking a standard action doesn't matter outside of combat. I have time. Heck the rogue takes minutes to unlock that lock. I unlock it in 6 seconds and I have 99 scrolls left over. And that's not counting wands. So, my 7th level wizard is using scrolls for utility, or possibly medium term buffs (the 10 minute/level stuff that can be cast when you know a combat is coming). All for about 10% of my character wealth. You allow a fighter by 7th level to have a +1 weapon no? That's not considered a problem. So, why is my wizard suddenly a problem? After all, how long does it take to forge a masterwork weapon? Oh, that's right, it's totally believable that the fighter picks up any sword, so long as its masterwork, and gets it enchanted. That's no problem. Like I said, the counter arguments here just boggle my mind. I can totally see why some people don't see the problem if their players have the tactical and strategic sense of concussed badgers. The problem comes when you have a decently competent player sitting at the wheel of a caster. Look, nothing I listed above is abusing the system. This is straight from PHB 1. No additional books, no cherry picking feats and/or spells from fifteen different sources. This is just Caster 101 stuff. This is the problem with these conversations. We wind up spending a dozen pages with people refusing to accept that for some of us, these are actual problems IN OUR GAMES. And telling us to just play the way you play isn't the solution. I don't want to play the way you play. The game is supposed to support multiple playstyles. Telling me to play the way you play is essentially telling me that the game doesn't actually support anything other than your playstyle. [/QUOTE]

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