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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6075269" data-attributes="member: 6681948">Then Open Locks was useless before the Wizard came along, wasn’t it?  Ban Crowbars – no more Tier 1 equipment! Scroll of Knock:  L2 x CL3 x 25gp = 150 gp x 1/2 = 75 gp x 50 = 3,750 gpWand of Knock:  L2 x CL3 x 750gp = 4,500 gp Unless you take Craft Wand, scrolls are cheaper anyway.  You do save 30 gp per casting if you use Craft Wand, though. So how many spells, at each level, is the wizard keeping a few copies of at all times?  How often does he use them?  If he uses them a lot, it’s expensive.  If he only needs one once in a while, how is it breaking the game?  Either this is a huge issue (and he runs through a lot of scrolls) or it isn’t. And I’m assuming you weren’t the one saying “use scrolls for 10 minute/level and higher buffs as well” as those would get used pretty quick, so a chunk of your daily spells, I assume, go for buffs. I thought the Wizard used his own offensive spells, not scrolls, and the ability to have “a scroll for every occasion” which could be accessed out of combat, when time is not an issue, was the problem.  The Wizard used up less than 10% of his wealth, which then jumped to 30%+ when your math was challenged.  The Rogue certainly uses up more (but then, he doesn’t need as many Knock scrolls, does he?), but for a vastly overpowered ability, it should be worth it, right? UMB at L7 can have 10 ranks, + CHA modifier.  He needs 20 + caster level, so the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] level spell (as high as your wizard went) requires a roll of 13 (less if he has more than 10 CHA).  Since time is not an issue, who cares that he must typically roll 3 times or so, or even that he could roll a 1 and have to wait a day (if he doesn’t have a second copy)? He has all that leftover wealth for weapons, so that should be good, right? Poor adventure design – we always know who the BBEG is, and that nothing of note will happen when he’s down. It’s the higher level ones.  For that L9 wizard, it’s his one 5[SUP]th[/SUP] and most 4[SUP]th[/SUP], likely with a 2/3 or two in there. In the games I play or run, Intent and Achievement are not always synonyms. I used the example of one wilderness encounter a day.  The response was “he can just nova”.  So I asked how he knows there will never be a second encounter.  Now he’s an idiot if he novas. Which is it?  Who keeps casting Animate Goalposts? Failure = try again.  Why is that delay a big deal for the rogue, but time is no issue for the wizard rummaging for that one appropriate scroll?  And the rogue brings his other abilities.  So what?  Is the ability to have a utility spell for every occasion a huge power boost (as argued for the wizard) or not (rogue argument)?  The rogue doesn’t pay the up front investment of learning the spell, but gets sandbagged with the doubled ongoing cost. I don’t use wandering monsters.  A second planned encounter at the party’s CR (maybe higher if the plan is only two encounters in the day). That much longer for overland travel, then.  And we can’t escort anyone, guard a caravan or have a Druid with an animal companion, can we? Certainly.  Provided you study it carefully for an hour after you eat.  But since time is never an issue in your games, no big deal, right? More money spent.  Hopefully, nothing happens while you figure out what went wrong and retrieve it. He’s not immediately submerging, jetting and ink clouding – if he is, you can’t target those spells. Good – that’s his role on the team, isn’t it?  If we go back to those three wizards, what do they do with a blinded, slowed and “another effect” Kraken (likely one effect – he made the other two saves)?  Poke it with daggers?  Jumped up another four levels, I see.  And “every wizard is the same” is a caricature.  And Glitterdust and Web mattered quite a bit earlier in your post – did they get revised in level since then? Pick up an item – move action which provokes an AoO.  “Pull item out of wood it is embedded in” isn’t listed, but I’m thinking that’s not as fast.  Throw the item?  What stops a Goblin catching it?  For that matter, the Silence can also be cast on a point in space, one of several crossbow bolts fired or the doorframe itself.  How does the Wizard know what it’s cast on? Agreed – but that means the party can’t, as seems consistently argued, avoid the risk of more encounters before resting by using Rope Trick wherever they are.More because he’s sane, but suit yourself. If I’m a fighter focused on a specific weapon type, my approach is to buy a weapon of that type, have it enchanted and have it upgraded over time.  If I don’t focus on a specific weapon type, I commonly use the best weapon(s) found as loot.  Either way, I’m not paying full price and getting half price every time I upgrade or change the weapon. Why is the xp a big deal now, but wasn’t for scrolls to learn spells, wands, etc.?  1/25 of 6,000 in scrolls, wands or whatever is the same 240 xp.  YOU kill the Slowed Kraken, then.  And we left that animal companion behind when the four humanoids Teleported home.  Remember, we only needed to transport four creatures?  Funny…the fighter/rogue/warrior is pretty much useless, but the party is never all wizards…</blockquote>

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