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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6075998" data-attributes="member: 22779">Oh please.Using base class abilities is &quot;pushing the system&quot;?&nbsp; Again, we're not talking about the player who's cherry picking from a bunch of different sources.&nbsp; Fair enough, he's a problem.&nbsp; I think we all agree about this.But a wizard player who uses Scribe Scroll should not be considered &quot;pushing the system&quot;.&nbsp; A wizard player who uses &quot;Craft Wand&quot; should not be considered &quot;pushing the system&quot;.&nbsp; A caster who actually knows what his spells can do and does that, should not be considered &quot;pushing the system&quot;.&nbsp; Heck, once upon a time, &quot;creative use of spells&quot; was considered a GOOD thing.&nbsp; One of the criticisms of 4e is that you are not allowed to do that supposedly.&nbsp; The idea that you can push beyond the basic use of a spell has a very long tradition in D&amp;D.&nbsp; There are numerous Dragon articles on exactly that going all the way back to when there was a &quot;The&quot; in the name.Yet, for some reason, using basic, Caster 101 ideas, is now &quot;pushing the system&quot;.&nbsp; Granted, it's true that if a cleric only uses healing, and a wizard only uses direct damage spells, there would be no balance issue.&nbsp; Not exactly what I'd call a competently played character though.Ok, let's recap shall we?&nbsp; In the form of a question.&nbsp; If there were no problems with caster/non-caster balance in 3e, why is every single variant caster WEAKER than the core 3 casters?&nbsp; Without fail, every single variant caster - Warlock, War Wizard, Favoured Soul, Shadowcaster etc - is weaker, and often considerably weaker, than the core 3 casters.&nbsp; Yet, virtually every single variant non-caster is STRONGER than the PHB non-casters.&nbsp; The vast majority ramp the power of non-casters upward.Why is that?&nbsp; Is it because of problem players?&nbsp; Or is it a recognition of a known issue?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6075998, member: 22779"] Oh please. Using base class abilities is "pushing the system"? Again, we're not talking about the player who's cherry picking from a bunch of different sources. Fair enough, he's a problem. I think we all agree about this. But a wizard player who uses Scribe Scroll should not be considered "pushing the system". A wizard player who uses "Craft Wand" should not be considered "pushing the system". A caster who actually knows what his spells can do and does that, should not be considered "pushing the system". Heck, once upon a time, "creative use of spells" was considered a GOOD thing. One of the criticisms of 4e is that you are not allowed to do that supposedly. The idea that you can push beyond the basic use of a spell has a very long tradition in D&D. There are numerous Dragon articles on exactly that going all the way back to when there was a "The" in the name. Yet, for some reason, using basic, Caster 101 ideas, is now "pushing the system". Granted, it's true that if a cleric only uses healing, and a wizard only uses direct damage spells, there would be no balance issue. Not exactly what I'd call a competently played character though. Ok, let's recap shall we? In the form of a question. If there were no problems with caster/non-caster balance in 3e, why is every single variant caster WEAKER than the core 3 casters? Without fail, every single variant caster - Warlock, War Wizard, Favoured Soul, Shadowcaster etc - is weaker, and often considerably weaker, than the core 3 casters. Yet, virtually every single variant non-caster is STRONGER than the PHB non-casters. The vast majority ramp the power of non-casters upward. Why is that? Is it because of problem players? Or is it a recognition of a known issue? [/QUOTE]

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