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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6076042" data-attributes="member: 22779">Taking a bear along with my druid is &quot;pushing&quot; the system?&nbsp; After all, this whole side bar started by saying that DM's should use in game reality to limit class abilities.&nbsp; Using 30% of a character's resources to completely get around a class limitation is &quot;pushing&quot; the system?&nbsp; Really?&nbsp; And that's a high estimate.&nbsp; You don't even need to go this big to do it.So, yes, a player who is using stock class abilities in a fairly reasonable way should not be seen as &quot;pushing&quot; the system.&nbsp; And a player who fails to use stock class abilities in a completely reasonable way is pretty incompetent.&nbsp; Or, at the very least, is not engaging in much system mastery.&nbsp; Something which 3e is meant to promote.The problem is, the WIZARD kills those wizard-killing constructs far, far more easily than the war wizard.&nbsp; But the war wizard isn't bypassing virtually every single challenge the DM throws at the party by virtue of having a spell for that.&nbsp; If your idea of an abusive character is a wizard that focuses on direct damage, then, well, this conversation isn't going anywhere because we're not even speaking the same language anymore.And, I noticed, you still failed to actually answer my question.&nbsp; If there is no problem with the system, if the problem is entirely with the players, why does every single variant caster lower the power of the caster classes?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6076042, member: 22779"] Taking a bear along with my druid is "pushing" the system? After all, this whole side bar started by saying that DM's should use in game reality to limit class abilities. Using 30% of a character's resources to completely get around a class limitation is "pushing" the system? Really? And that's a high estimate. You don't even need to go this big to do it. So, yes, a player who is using stock class abilities in a fairly reasonable way should not be seen as "pushing" the system. And a player who fails to use stock class abilities in a completely reasonable way is pretty incompetent. Or, at the very least, is not engaging in much system mastery. Something which 3e is meant to promote. The problem is, the WIZARD kills those wizard-killing constructs far, far more easily than the war wizard. But the war wizard isn't bypassing virtually every single challenge the DM throws at the party by virtue of having a spell for that. If your idea of an abusive character is a wizard that focuses on direct damage, then, well, this conversation isn't going anywhere because we're not even speaking the same language anymore. And, I noticed, you still failed to actually answer my question. If there is no problem with the system, if the problem is entirely with the players, why does every single variant caster lower the power of the caster classes? [/QUOTE]

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