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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6076427" data-attributes="member: 22779">How would I resolve the issue, now that we can finally admit that an issue exists?1.&nbsp; No core casters.&nbsp; Replace the wizard with a sorcerer, cleric with Favoured Soul and Druid with Ranger.No more problem.&nbsp; I don't generally see the same game changing problems with Sorcerers since they can't really go too hog wild on the game changing spells - they don't get cast often enough to make it worth the Sorc's time.&nbsp; Favoured Soul's do the same thing to clerics - remove the ability to cherry pick spells for every situation.&nbsp; And, if I want a nature protector, a Ranger works just as well as a Druid, IMO.That, or I could just stick with playing other editions than 3e/Pathfinder and not have this issue as well.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />I remember back when we first started playing 3e.&nbsp; I played a Wizard/Conjurer (a carry over character from 2e).&nbsp; The group was about 8th (ish) level when we took possession of a ruined keep.&nbsp; Small keep, nothing too large.&nbsp; The walls were fallen down and it was in pretty bad shape, but, fixable.&nbsp; So, we decided to take up residence and make ourselves a nice base.&nbsp; No problem.The DM pulls out his Stronghold Builder's guide and starts calculating costs of repairing the keep.&nbsp; I peruse my PHB (3e) and realize that my summoner can get about 9 Formian Workers for 7 rounds (on average).&nbsp; 3 Formian Workers can cast Make Whole at will.&nbsp; This meant I had 20 (again, ish) Make Whole spells per day.&nbsp; That was 70 cubic feet/casting or 1400 cubic feet of Make Whole per day.A bit of back of the envelope calculation later and we realized that my Wizard could repair the keep in about 3 months for no cost.This is what I'm talking about when I talk about casters just being too powerful.&nbsp; Too powerful in the game changing sense.&nbsp; The non-casters simply could not do what I did.&nbsp; There's no way they could.&nbsp; Never mind if we just headed into a larger town/city and bought a Lyre of Building, but, again, we did it on the cheap.&nbsp; Now, was I abusing my character?&nbsp; Was I powergaming?&nbsp; Is that &quot;pushing the system&quot;?&nbsp; I completely bypassed the DM's plans - hiring workers, protecting/feeding the workers, lots of RP, etc - simply by applying a spell that was straight out of the PHB.This, to me, is the biggest problem with Tier 1 Casters.&nbsp; The fact that with fairly simple applications, they can bypass the DM's campaign.I'd also note that in the changes from 3e to 3.5, this got nerfed.&nbsp; Every single summonable creature on the Wizard list that had spell like abilities for use out of combat got removed.&nbsp; I mean, at higher level, I could have used those formians to cast Cure Serious Wounds.&nbsp; Never mind summoning Unicorns.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6076427, member: 22779"] How would I resolve the issue, now that we can finally admit that an issue exists? 1. No core casters. Replace the wizard with a sorcerer, cleric with Favoured Soul and Druid with Ranger. No more problem. I don't generally see the same game changing problems with Sorcerers since they can't really go too hog wild on the game changing spells - they don't get cast often enough to make it worth the Sorc's time. Favoured Soul's do the same thing to clerics - remove the ability to cherry pick spells for every situation. And, if I want a nature protector, a Ranger works just as well as a Druid, IMO. That, or I could just stick with playing other editions than 3e/Pathfinder and not have this issue as well. :D I remember back when we first started playing 3e. I played a Wizard/Conjurer (a carry over character from 2e). The group was about 8th (ish) level when we took possession of a ruined keep. Small keep, nothing too large. The walls were fallen down and it was in pretty bad shape, but, fixable. So, we decided to take up residence and make ourselves a nice base. No problem. The DM pulls out his Stronghold Builder's guide and starts calculating costs of repairing the keep. I peruse my PHB (3e) and realize that my summoner can get about 9 Formian Workers for 7 rounds (on average). 3 Formian Workers can cast Make Whole at will. This meant I had 20 (again, ish) Make Whole spells per day. That was 70 cubic feet/casting or 1400 cubic feet of Make Whole per day. A bit of back of the envelope calculation later and we realized that my Wizard could repair the keep in about 3 months for no cost. This is what I'm talking about when I talk about casters just being too powerful. Too powerful in the game changing sense. The non-casters simply could not do what I did. There's no way they could. Never mind if we just headed into a larger town/city and bought a Lyre of Building, but, again, we did it on the cheap. Now, was I abusing my character? Was I powergaming? Is that "pushing the system"? I completely bypassed the DM's plans - hiring workers, protecting/feeding the workers, lots of RP, etc - simply by applying a spell that was straight out of the PHB. This, to me, is the biggest problem with Tier 1 Casters. The fact that with fairly simple applications, they can bypass the DM's campaign. I'd also note that in the changes from 3e to 3.5, this got nerfed. Every single summonable creature on the Wizard list that had spell like abilities for use out of combat got removed. I mean, at higher level, I could have used those formians to cast Cure Serious Wounds. Never mind summoning Unicorns. :D [/QUOTE]

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