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What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6078897" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>Looking at the Pathfinder version, they did adopt a lot of the WOTC restrictions on polymorph that came in late in 3e. Also, I notice they strongly limit size and type - which generally is going to get rid of the worst of the cheese.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, and those are also problematic. To the point where you have have a dozen or more variant turning rules and animal companion tweaks.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Mostly this was linked to the later idea of the DM using critters in the area. If you stay in one area long enough, you pretty much going to meet all the really dangerous stuff. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But, pre-3e polymorph is WAY weaker than the 3e version. The size limitation meant that you couldn't get too big. And, the monsters in pre-3e polymorph had such weak attacks, that any monster shape you took generally wasn't going to be any better than what you could do with spells and were most often quite a bit worse. Particularly for a minimum 7th level caster.</p><p></p><p>The problem in 3e is that the monsters got jacked up SO much in their basic attack capabilities that losing special abilities isn't that big of a deal. Again, looking at the behir, who cares that you lost that breath weapon when you have a +25 grapple check (give or take because of size and strength), improved grab and swallow whole? Or, better yet, 6 rake attacks for each successful grapple check. Attack, grab, pin, rake until dead. It's ridiculously overpowered.</p><p></p><p>In 2e or earlier, changing into a behir, which you couldn't actually do since it was too big, netted you 2d4 damage bite and six attacks (using your wizard THAC0) for a d6 each. Nice (and illegal let's not forget) but hardly any more overpowering than many other 4th level Magic-User spells.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Note, you wouldn't gain immunities with a Polymorph spell. But, I do disagree that the problem is cherry picking for situation. The problem is that some forms are just so good that they are ridiculously overpowered. Heck, even a Troll is a nasty, nasty form. You can pump out 50+ points of damage per round with a bog standard Troll. Again, way too much damage for the spell level.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6078897, member: 22779"] Looking at the Pathfinder version, they did adopt a lot of the WOTC restrictions on polymorph that came in late in 3e. Also, I notice they strongly limit size and type - which generally is going to get rid of the worst of the cheese. Yes, and those are also problematic. To the point where you have have a dozen or more variant turning rules and animal companion tweaks. Mostly this was linked to the later idea of the DM using critters in the area. If you stay in one area long enough, you pretty much going to meet all the really dangerous stuff. :D But, pre-3e polymorph is WAY weaker than the 3e version. The size limitation meant that you couldn't get too big. And, the monsters in pre-3e polymorph had such weak attacks, that any monster shape you took generally wasn't going to be any better than what you could do with spells and were most often quite a bit worse. Particularly for a minimum 7th level caster. The problem in 3e is that the monsters got jacked up SO much in their basic attack capabilities that losing special abilities isn't that big of a deal. Again, looking at the behir, who cares that you lost that breath weapon when you have a +25 grapple check (give or take because of size and strength), improved grab and swallow whole? Or, better yet, 6 rake attacks for each successful grapple check. Attack, grab, pin, rake until dead. It's ridiculously overpowered. In 2e or earlier, changing into a behir, which you couldn't actually do since it was too big, netted you 2d4 damage bite and six attacks (using your wizard THAC0) for a d6 each. Nice (and illegal let's not forget) but hardly any more overpowering than many other 4th level Magic-User spells. Note, you wouldn't gain immunities with a Polymorph spell. But, I do disagree that the problem is cherry picking for situation. The problem is that some forms are just so good that they are ridiculously overpowered. Heck, even a Troll is a nasty, nasty form. You can pump out 50+ points of damage per round with a bog standard Troll. Again, way too much damage for the spell level. [/QUOTE]
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Community
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What would you say is the biggest problem with Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and other "Tier 1" Spellcasters?
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