Dragonlance (+) What Would You Want From 5e Dragonlance?

[Raunalyn]

I think the post Fifth Age Afflicted Kender are actually a wonderful addition to the game. The child-like, curious, and cheerful eternal children have their innocence stripped of them and understand the meaning of fear? That is tragic!

I really didn't like much from the Age of Mortals, nor did I like what happened during the War of Souls, but I did like the Afflicted Kender.

Also, I was a big fan of Taladas, and I would love to see how they move that continent forward post War of the Lance.

 

[Maxperson]

It's a Dragonlance plus thread! Don't threadcrap, please. If you don't like DL, don't think it will/should get a 5e iteration, or otherwise just disagree with the basic premise of the thread, take it elsewhere. Also, don't crap on anyone's ideas. If your feedback is just, "That whole idea is bad and dumb" just keep it to yourself.

One of the things that Wizards is selling setting books on these days is expanding the game in general, in addition to present a different campaign world from the PHB or FR.

Now, I think there are a couple aspects of the setting they can play up that are both fairly unique to DL and set it apart, and that could lend to new mechanics and rules to expand the game.

• Group Quests: Similar to Group Patron, this is a mechanic or rule that brings a group together. Could also be worded as a Group Destiny for broader usage, but in DL it's really in line with the kind of fantasy you're dealing with to have a big "main quest" right from the start, that binds the heroes to eachother, explains quickly replaced heroes and additional allies, can lead to gaining allies with resources and followers, etc. Could use something like the Hope score in The One Ring, which is sort of a group Morale that can be depleted or regained via play, and can be refreshed by resting in a safe place.

• Followers, Allies, and Enemies: Not every person in your fellowship needs to be a PC, and some optional codification of gaining skilled hirelings that are loyal to you/your group, gaining a squire or apprentice, having a loyal sibling who would follow you into hell to keep you safe, etc, are all concepts that are very appropriate to DL even more than DND in general, and could use some expansion in 5e.

• Extended Rests, Havens, and Enemy Territory: Related to the Morale idea above, some things should only come back when you rest for multiple days in a safe and comfortable place.
  • Rules for Havens - safe and comfortable place, where can be found; information, supplies, potential new allies, even the ear of a powerful potential ally or patron who might give you some aid in your Quest
  • Extended Rests - multi-day rests that refresh things like Morale and allow for strengthening bonds, getting new resources, gathering information, etc, partly acting to make Downtime optionally more interesting and engaging and not take as long, and acting as a way to regain what traveling and fighting and running in Enemy Territory takes from you.
  • Enemy Territory - This is really where we get new Journey rules that are more interesting and engaging, as part of creating a new kind of encounter that takes place over multiple days or even weeks, and is an encounter with the enviroment, with enemy forces, and with a land in which no rest is fully restful, no place is truly safe, and no journey is without cost. Include rules for resolving random encounters without rolling initiative, and possibly a new variant feature set for the Ranger tbh.
• Romantic Fantasy style bonds: These would relate to the Quest idea, but also go beyond it. You have a fellowship, sure, and gain Hope from them, but you also have relationships out in the world that you can call upon, take refuge with, and who can call upon you in turn. People you owe allegiance to, people you owe your life, a people or nation you seek to better, reform, or uplift, all with an assumption that most PCs are not working against the well being of the world at large, even if they serve an "evil" god, as is the case with Black Robed Wizards.
• Dedication to Cosmic Good, Evil, or Neutrality: The alignments of Krynn are not the same as in other worlds, even when they share a name. It's a place where the 4e style alignment chart makes more sense, but it's also a place where things fall apart cataclysmically when Good or Evil reigns supreme. It's also, perhaps more importantly, a place where there are tangible benefits and drawbacks to allegiance to each alignment. Each is a path to a certain kind of power, or to oppose a certain kind of power in the world. This presents a wholly different kind of cosmology than other worlds have, but also changes what "evil" means on a character sheet or NPC statblock. A reboot of Krynn requires non-essentialist alignment, but it also benefits from a more Keith Baker-style understanding of alignment. Dalamar wouldn't be Evil as a 5e FR NPC, but he is in Krynn, because he practices Black Robe Wizardry, and thus serves the black moon and through him, his mother Takhisis. And yet, he opposes senseless destruction, feels compassion, and helps Good people. He believes in the Balance, and takes a few significant risks to oppose or at least undermine even his own ultimate cosmic sovereign.
• Expansion on the Subclasses for multiple Classes Concept: Speaking of Black Robes, the orders of high sorcery could easily be subclasses that are available to any arcane full caster. White Robes gain restorative spells without any cleric baggage, Black Robes gain destructive spells and perhaps a means to boost damage from spells, and Red Robes gain a little of both, and explicitly get less in raw power from their subclass at low level, catch up in mid levels, and surpass the other two at high levels, while being the most versatile throughout.
• Mass Combat:
  • Unit/squad initiative, Unit attacks as saving throw AoEs with half damage on a miss. Scaling efficacy of units as they lose numbers. Unit HP with each X HP representing a member of the unit.
  • Moving through hostile units causes damage, either automatically or with a save to take half.
  • Rules for morale, using skills and tactics to reduce enemy Unit Max HP and HP threshold (the number that represents a single troop), rules for breaking a unit with a charge or other overwhelming offensive and rules for opposing a charge and for bolstering a unit's offense or defense.
  • secondary rules for running mass combat as normal combat but with per round initiative, and initiative rolls determining what happens at initiative 10 and 20. Initiative 10 and 20 are "lair action" style events that showcase how the larger battle is going, based on what the PCs are contributing to it, and also how the larger battle effects the PCs in their smaller fights.
  • Perhaps a third set of rules for having each PC run a part of the battle, with a rough translation guide to how to use PC abilities on a larger scale. This is the single most playtest intensive idea I've got, though.

So! Those are some of my ideas! I've got vague feelings about giving more rules to how different kinds of settlements effect resting and gathering info and supplies, and the like, but they're super vague at this point. Still, DL is a world where spending the night in Solace is different from spending the night as guests in a Tower of High Wizardry, and you can absolutely make the difference interesting and fun.

What are your ideas?

What would I want from 5e Dragonlance? 5e Dark Sun of course!

Seriously, though, I'd want...

1. Four new Dragonborn subraces that don't have breath weapons, but do have the death abilities from the books.
2. I'd want playable Minotaurs and Irda.
3. Three Wizard subclasses representing the three moons.
4. Two fighter Solomnic knight subclasses.
5. One Paladin Knight of the Rose(Oath of the Rose) Subclass that converts Knight of the Crown and/or Sword levels over to Rose.
6. Stats for greater and lesser Dragonlances.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What would I want from 5e Dragonlance? 5e Dark Sun of course!

hopefully we both get what we want!

Seriously, though, I'd want...

1. Four new Dragonborn subraces that don't have breath weapons, but do have the death abilities from the books.
2. I'd want playable Minotaurs and Irda.
3. Three Wizard subclasses representing the three moons.
4. Two fighter Solomnic knight subclasses.
5. One Paladin Knight of the Rose(Oath of the Rose) Subclass that converts Knight of the Crown and/or Sword levels over to Rose.
6. Stats for greater and lesser Dragonlances.

Interesting. I’m not sure how the Paladin thing would work, though. What about a cross class subclass for the Knights?

 

[Maxperson]

hopefully we both get what we want!

Thanks! Me, too!

Interesting. I’m not sure how the Paladin thing would work, though. What about a cross class subclass for the Knights?

The original Knights of the Rose were a Paladinish class. Basically Knights with limited clerical spellcasting if I remember correctly. I just figured a Paladin oath would best represent that.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Thanks! Me, too!

The original Knights of the Rose were a Paladinish class. Basically Knights with limited clerical spellcasting if I remember correctly. I just figured a Paladin oath would best represent that.

Yeah that makes sense.

 

[Steampunkette]

Thanks! Me, too!

The original Knights of the Rose were a Paladinish class. Basically Knights with limited clerical spellcasting if I remember correctly. I just figured a Paladin oath would best represent that.

That'd work well. Though you could also make it a Fighter Subclass with some Divine Spellcasting like a "Divine Knight" instead of Eldritch Knight...

That said. I really like the idea that a level 7 Fighter Knight who becomes a Paladin of the Rose at level 8 becomes a level 8 Paladin level 0 Fighter.

Also I made a thread similar to this one for Dark Sun if you wanna pop on there to talk about what you want in a DS Update.

 

[Maxperson]

That'd work well. Though you could also make it a Fighter Subclass with some Divine Spellcasting like a "Divine Knight" instead of Eldritch Knight...

That said. I really like the idea that a level 7 Fighter Knight who becomes a Paladin of the Rose at level 8 becomes a level 8 Paladin level 0 Fighter.

Also I made a thread similar to this one for Dark Sun if you wanna pop on there to talk about what you want in a DS Update.

Yeah. Back in 1e that's kind of how it worked.........I think. I think if you got promoted to Rose you converted over.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

My idea for the Knights of Solomnia was a forking Paladin oath called Oath of the Measure. Third level you become a Knight of the Crown, seventh level you can stay Crown or switch to Knight of the Sword, and at fifteenth level you can stay Crown or Sword, or a Sword Knight can switch to Knight of the Rose.

 

[Steel_Wind]

I will strike a discordant note in what has mostly been a reasonable (if not helpful thread).

I don't want to see a Krynn setting beyond the bare necessity necessary to run the classic War of the Lance campaign. Because that's DragonLance. The rest is just the echo of what was; trying to milk the real thing for the last of its juices, long after the ripe oranges had been squeezed almost dry.

I want to see DL1-14 re-done and completely revised for 5e with new art, new maps -- and even entirely new encounters. Not converted -- but REVISED. I want to see a dramatic refresh of the classic campaign for a generation that isn't familiar with the original modules or the novels.

In short, nothing here for any of us to play in and be much surprised by, only to DM it for unsuspecting new gamers who come to the tale tabula rasa. After all, it's been 37 years.

I am already doing exactly this for the only unsuspecting group of gamers I could find: my family. In 37 years, they are the only ones I have been able to find who want to play the classic campaign who have no idea what it is about.

So I got to work in Photoshop and FoundryVTT during Covid -- and I am telling this story for them on our home network. Everyone has their own desktop computer. So that works for us.

The classic DL campaign is an experience a new generation deserves. Serve that goal - because that's the one that actually matters. Throw everything else suggested above into the fire. We already have material for that.

You are talking about supporting sequel adventures when the main tale is the one that needs to refreshed and re-told to a new generation.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Hell yeah. I think that what sets DL apart, and what a lot of people miss entirely, is that it is a setting of tragic heroism, redemption and falls from grace, and romantic ideals that would fit in an Arthurian tale.

You are, of course, entirely correct in this view and assessment of DragonLance.

But there is a reason for that and how that element emerges in the narrative of the tale. DragonLance is not simply a story that takes place in a setting, it is a story that involves characters with pre-existing relationships. It is "the Star Wars of D&D" because of the familial bloodlines and their pre-existing relationships. DragonLance is not just a story about the setting or the bad guys. It's a story about the good guys, in a way that no other Adv Path really has been since. And that's the problem.

There are a lot of gamers -- the large if not overwhelming majority of which -- find the idea of playing a pre-generated character to be anathema to their roleplaying experience. I cannot disagree with them about that. They are not wrong.

HOWEVER...

There is a reason that the romance and tragedy of DL can't be repeated without those pre-existing relationships. It's the lifeblood of the story; it is the bathwater you are trying to throw out. In order for it to work at its best, you need it. Yes, even if you hate it.

You don't have to do it with the pre-gens, but you are going to throw out that romance and tragedy without it. That's the part you need to square with and stop hand-waving it all away as if it doesn't matter. It does matter. It matters a lot.

For new players? The pre-gens work really well. The problem comes when they have read the novels and are making those choices; or FAR worse, when the DM has read the novels and is trying to force the PCs to make those choices. But if you stay away from those easy to avoid pitfalls? It works brilliantly for someone coming at it tabula rasa.

And that isn't us.

However, there are millions of customers who are not us. And it's been 37 years. Most new players? They haven't read them. At all.

No, it's not going to work for the vast majority of people reading this thread. But here's the thing: that's okay. The vast majority of us here are doddering old grognards. We are not the players to focus on. We're not the market for this 5e product.

We can, however, be DMs for it to those who are noobs, if we are lucky enough to find such an unsuspecting group to unleash it upon.

And if not? That's okay too. It's not about you; it's not about us. It's about the people who aren't reading this thread.