Whatever happened to Necromancer Games?

[Elton Robb]

It's not "biting the hand that feeds you", it's more like owning a store and then deciding to give away all your products. It might me a nice thing to do, but it's likely going to make you broke.

Hasbro can make a lot more money by Mainstreaming D&D through Merchandising than by selling D&D books through Wizards of the Coast. D&D Figures, D&D board games (like D&D Clue), Dungeons and Dragons T-Shirts, Dungeons and Dragons art books, Dungeons and Dragons T.V. shows, and Dungeons and Dragons movies. Hasbro can make more money than printing the books themselves. Merchandising is the best way to make a lot of money on a brand that is worth more than the shared creative game itself.

Dungeons and Dragons is so mainstream in the public now that Hasbro can make a killing selling Dungeons and Dragons to people outside the Creative Thinking fans which we are. We make up only a small part of that market, Hasbro can now mainstream the brand and sell to the public which does not play and make a whole lot more money.

Freeing up the game and not locking it away is a small sacrifice to the bigger market potentials on the Brand itself. For instance, Hasbro made more money on the (sucky) Dungeons and Dragons movie than the sales of the books combined for the last 30 years. By working with filmmakers which have money and quality, they can make ten times as much money. Merchandising is the key to success in a Copyright Free world.

Even many OGL proponents wouldn't recommend using CC or Public Domain.

Because they haven't thought about what copyright actually favors. That is the publishing industry, not the artists or creators.

Economically, WoTC is in a good position, they are like Apple with the iPod, iPhone, and iPad. What you are proposing makes it harder for them to win because you want to turn a market into what's called "perfect competition", which is the other end of a spectrum from a monopoly. Perfect competition has downsides, most importantly it prevents anybody from making any sort of profit.

MERCHANDISING. MERCHANDISING. MERCHANDISING.

I won't get into your anti-copyright stances, as I've said my opinions a lot on the subject, so I'll simply talk economics. The D&D game is not a monopoly since people can and do create other RPGs. The way to prevent it from becoming a monopoly is to support the alternatives. It's like Coke--Pepsi and other can compete but they can't copy the existing Coke formula.

No, it's not a monopoly, it's a brand. But WotC has an intellectual monopoly on the game rules themselves attached to that brand.

I think a lot of free culture advocates ignore economic costs (as well as social and other costs). There's a reason why we had a dot-com bubble, and there's a reason why a lot of newspapers are starting to charge for on-line access, and why the DRM and other debates are so important. I fear a lot of people ignore these equations when advocating their positions.

We don't. We are quite aware of the costs. Much of the costs economic costs are legal fees and legal transactions.

If you want the free culture to succeed, vote with your wallet and don't buy from the company. The moral stance should be to support games like Eclipse Phase if you believe that, and (most importantly) to make a sacrifice and go without. If WoTC see that people are support the competing game over theirs, if sales go down for WoTC AND there's evidence that piracy also goes down, then maybe it will have an impact. But I think there are too many people not willing to make the sacrifice.

Because they don't know any better. WotC can be making a lot of money by merchandising the brand out in the non-RPG playing public. Buy giving the game over to us and publishing it as a side show, younger people who can be interested in D&D will buy into D&D. How many kids became interested in Dungeons and Dragons through the Cartoon show of the mid-eighties? How many fans now are angry over WotC pulling the plug on PDFs and locking away a significant part of our gamer culture for the past 30 years?

You really think that by supporting Copyright Law your grandchildren will be able to play the historic games of the past? You are supporting an antiquated publishing model that has shown its age when a machine that is capable of copy and redistribution was invented in the late sixties early seventies. You are supporting an antiquated publishing model when the Internet came into common use. You are also supporting censorship in a very real, very powerful way.

 

[Piratecat]

It's okay to discuss the notion of WotC opening up D&D, but this isn't the place for a copyright screed. Let's not go off on that track, please.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Hasbro can make a lot more money by Mainstreaming D&D through Merchandising than by selling D&D books through Wizards of the Coast. D&D Figures, D&D board games (like D&D Clue), Dungeons and Dragons T-Shirts, Dungeons and Dragons art books, Dungeons and Dragons T.V. shows, and Dungeons and Dragons movies. Hasbro can make more money than printing the books themselves. Merchandising is the best way to make a lot of money on a brand that is worth more than the shared creative game itself.

So, basically, you are saying that because they have a valuable property, they should give it up and focus on the merchandising rights?! I hate to tell you this, but (1) Merchandising rights only work as long as the core product is solid and (2) a lot of players disliked the emphasis of the merchandising of the game over the core competency.

Freeing up the game and not locking it away is a small sacrifice to the bigger market potentials on the Brand itself. For instance, Hasbro made more money on the (sucky) Dungeons and Dragons movie than the sales of the books combined for the last 30 years. By working with filmmakers which have money and quality, they can make ten times as much money. Merchandising is the key to success in a Copyright Free world.

Ah yes, the old "T-Shirt will make the bands rich" argument. Ted Ralls brilliant cartoon had this to say about it.

And what does merchandising have to do with the iPod or iPad?

We don't. We are quite aware of the costs. Much of the costs economic costs are legal fees and legal transactions.

I really don't think you have a good understanding of things. It's not just legal fees. There are costs when you remove something. You need to think about the macro and micro economic models. You need to review how civilizations worked for decades and centuries. You need to see it from the whole perspective, not just your own, the consumer.

Oops...sorry PCat, finished posting before your message.

 

[Piratecat]

Oops...sorry PCat, finished posting before your message.

I clarified it a bit. So long as this conversation stays game-industry focused, it's generally okay.

 

[Piratecat]

I'm of the opinion that WotC giving away D&D will never happen, should never happen, and would be corporate suicide. They're a publishing house, not a merchandising business; it's not even close to an advantage for them to give away creative control of the thing that they're best at, just so they can try to make money in areas they have no skill or core competencies in. The risk in that is staggering. It's far wiser for them to focus on what they're great at, build the brand, then license that brand to people who can merchandise it for them.

That may not be best for someone who wants to write 4e material without following the GSL, but I think it's definitely best for D&D as a whole.

 

[Jack99]

I don't know if they did it hear, but one of the WotC employees put a put a post up on RPGnet saying (basically) "we hear people don't like our adventures, what can we do to be better?"

And the answers, even in those Paizo-bahsing halls, was mostly just "take notes from Pathfinder." I guarantee that even in these awkward circumstances, many 4e DMs out there are dipping into the Paizo well.

There was a multipage thread here on ENworld as well. And while some certainly just said "look at Pathfinder", it seemed very clear that many others had different opinions of what could be done to make WotC's adventures better.

 

[Dark Mistress]

Some news about Necromancer games. Bill Webb of Necromancer games is starting a new company Frog God Games. They will be doing a subscription for all three of the Slumber Tsar books. They will be sent out by chapter and all three will be updated to Pathfinder rules, with new art and maps.

With the subscription you will get all the chapters sent to you over time for all three books, as well as a hardback book of all three completed and collected Slumber Tsar books. For more information you can go to their web site.

Frog God Games - Home

 

[DaveMage]

Yay!

 

[froggie]

Slumbering Tsar Subscription is live!

Frog God Games - Frog God's products can be purchased individually or by subscription.

The Sleeper Awakes!

At last, after languishing in its crypt for an age, the secrets of the slumbering city of Tsar burst forth in all their macabre glory. Poured forth from the eldritch furnaces and crucibles of the Necromancer and Orcus himself comes Frog God Games bringing you at long last The Slumbering Tsar Saga™.

Something Stirs in the City of Evil

Over the distant northern hills, beyond The Camp, and past the Desolation stand the pitted walls of Tsar. A hundred armies have crushed themselves against this bulwark in futile attempts to breach the city. Even the combined might of the Heavens and Earth were unable to break through in the final battle of Tsar. So why was the city suddenly abandoned on the verge of victory, and what waits for those foolish enough to enter the Temple-City of Orcus?

The Black Gates Await

Only the bravest and most powerful of heroes dare the depths of the Desolation and live to tell of it. But what happens when they penetrate that blasted landscape and look upon the gates of the very center of evil on the earth. Can even heroes of such renown breach the Walls of Death and live?

The Slumbering Tsar Saga™ began its journey years ago as a single mega-adventure for the masters of Third Edition rules and First Edition feel, then became a trilogy of adventures, then a trilogy of mega-adventures, and now finally comes to you as a monthly series culminating in a massive book with over a half million words of pure First Edition-style adventure. Updated to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game to accommodate today’s audience of the classic fantasy roleplaying game, The Slumbering Tsar Saga™ brings you 14 chapters, released monthly in electronic format, each chapter the size of a full adventure in its own right (30-50 pages) . Then when the final chapter has been released, the whole will be available in a classic edition, hardcover adventure book.

The Slumbering Tsar Saga™ will begin its run with the release of its first chapter, Slumbering Tsar: The Desolation, Part 1 —The Edge of Oblivion. Then each month will follow a new chapter in the saga:

Slumbering Tsar: The Desolation, Part 2 —The Ghosts of Victory

Slumbering Tsar: The Desolation, Part 3—The Western Front

Slumbering Tsar: Temple-City of Orcus, Part 1 —The Tower of Weeping Sores

Slumbering Tsar: Temple-City of Orcus, Part 2 —The Lower City

Slumbering Tsar: Temple-City of Orcus, Part 3 —The Harrow Lanes

Slumbering Tsar: Temple-City of Orcus, Part 4 —The Crooked Tower

Slumbering Tsar: Temple-City of Orcus, Part 5 —Foundations of Infamy

Slumbering Tsar: The Hidden Citadel, Part 1 —At the Feet of Orcus

Slumbering Tsar: The Hidden Citadel, Part 2 —Echoes of Despair

Slumbering Tsar: The Hidden Citadel, Part 3 —The Throne of the Demon Prince

Slumbering Tsar: The Hidden Citadel, Part 4 —In the Belly of the Beast

Slumbering Tsar: The Hidden Citadel, Part 5 —The Mind of Chaos

Slumbering Tsar: The Hidden Citadel, Part 6 —Caverns of the Barrier

 

[DaveMage]

Yay!

Ditto!