What's everyone's opinions of BESMd20?

[LordVyreth]

I just finished reading it, and my opinion is admittedly mixed. I think a lot of my issues stem from a possible misunderstanding of how character points work. Are they really saying that all ability scores have a 2 to one relationship with character points? And thus, a character needs at least 30 character points to have even base ten in all ability scores? That seems a little low considering 42 is the average power level, flunkies and pet monsters start with only 20 character points, and the supposedly-more powerful servants start with only ten! Granted, a few points in Defects make up for it slightly, but it still seems a little weak. Also, I'm concerned about the supposed weakness of the Adventurer versus other character classes. According to the book, the Adventurer has less Character Points to spend than other classes, but can theoretically benefit from them more due to total freedom in assigning them. But between the Limited Training Defect and the ability to create new classes, it seems like other classes can mosty gain the same advantage, weakening the Adventurer again. Has anyone played with the system so far, and how has it worked?

Also, what does everyone think of the way Own a Big Mecha and Dynamic Sorcery work? I was a little overwhelmed at the complexity of the included mecha rules, which felt far more detailed compared to normal BESM rules, and the cost of some things, like speed compared to armor and the cost of AI, were very high. Finally, how does everyone think Dynamic Sorcery is handled in terms of Energy Point costs? I'm a little worried about the fact that it takes so much EP to pay for the highest level spells, but I'd like some more personal comments, if possible.

In general, I'm looking for stories on how the system has worked for others, both relating to the above concerns and in general. Can anyone give me some of their interpretations?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I like d20 Mecha (included, I gather, in the version of BESM d20 you got). It's a (very) complex system, but it allows you to build virtually any type of vehicle in a very flexible manner.

Although BESM d20 itself is just as complex and flexible, it should come with a Veteran DMs Only sticker on the cover. I don't think Guardians of Order even tried to balance it... or really understood the d20 system.

The character point / ability point system is screwy in all sorts of ways. As you noted, it produces the equivalent of a very low point buy initially. But not to worry: you can just buy more as you level up. Think the adventurer looks weak? Dump all his character points into strength and constitution. That's +8 to each (a +4 bonus). Mind you, there's no cap on this. He's a ridiculous combat monster. WotC made a nicely balanced class, the war hulk, that got +2 Str and no Con each level, and no BAB.

The skill-based combat is also downright bizarre... especially in conjunction with armor-as-DR. It's almost impossible to miss most monsters. Unfortunately, it's also almost impossible to hurt them. (Not for a 10th-level adventurer with a Strength of 80, though).

Then there's the strange mix of core classes and a points-based system. I'm not really sure why this isn't just a points-based system.

I like the two basic concepts of BESM d20, adding a points-based system to the d20 mechanic and creating an anime-style d20 RPG. Unfortunately, the execution is so clunky that it would almost be easier to homebrew from scratch.

BESM d20 essentially can't be used "out of the box" (or at least, I can't imagine what such a game would look like), but if you carefully parse it for elements to add to a regular d20 game, it can be a lot of fun.

 

[The Goblin King]

I think its really cool. Now, if I could just figure out HOW to run a game with it.

I am seriously considering dumping Dynamic Sorcerery in favor of Elements of Magic Revised. It would still retain the flexability but actually make some sense. (to me anyway)

 

[LordVyreth]

This is unsettling. Has there been anyone that played in campaigns using the BESMd20 rules, even if some things were modified?

 

[Piratecat]

We'll ask in the d20 forum! Vroooooom.

You may also want to cross-post at rpg.net. You'll get some "Use the original rules!" posts, but they may have a greater number of folks who have played it.

 

[Timeboxer]

Although BESM d20 itself is just as complex and flexible, it should come with a Veteran DMs Only sticker on the cover. I don't think Guardians of Order even tried to balance it... or really understood the d20 system.

I have to agree with this sentiment. Essentially what Guardians or Order has done is not, in fact, taken BESM and adapted it to D20, but instead taken D20 and adapted it to BESM -- a move that bugs me, because I'm relatively adept with the D20 system and only on a cursory examination I see some really weird elements involved ("Controlled Breathing"?). I have a couple of friends who've played BESM D20 and concluded that it Just Didn't Work -- D20 works, and BESM works, but putting them together isn't so effective.

To be honest, I would really much rather have preferred that some company base an anime D20 system off of D20 Modern, which I think is lots more adaptable and flexible and could probably more easily simulate an anime-style world while staying faithful to the D20 design, what with talent trees and so on. (I've had ideas for a Magical Girl Advanced Class in my head for ages.) Seraphim Guard was planning on doing that awhile back in Heartquest Second Edition, but sadly I think those plans were scrapped in favor of just using the Anime D20 SRD. It'd be really really cool if someone were able to do this eventually.

Of course, my friends who hate D20 and love BESM think that BESM D20 is fantastic. So take this with a grain of salt.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

This is unsettling. Has there been anyone that played in campaigns using the BESMd20 rules, even if some things were modified?

I only have the original version, not the new one, but I LOVE it. The hard part is getting used to the idea that it is meant for a lot of power, etc. Its balanced within itself, but not with other things. It also fits the anime feel VERY well(though the original system is arguably better).

Currently, I'm running a BESMd20/Star Wars d20 mix game. All the classes from BESMd20 are being used, with a few modifications to feats, etc etc. Its a lot of fun, and creates a really interesting experience compared to the 'normal' d20 gaming.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Has there been anyone that played in campaigns using the BESMd20 rules, even if some things were modified?

We're playing an Aberrant campaign using a mishmash of Aberrant, d20 Modern and BESM d20 that the DM put together. I actually had the DM build my character for me, since the original BESM makes my eyes bleed every time I look at it. We've only had one session so far, and I kept having to ask the DM what *this* did, but it's actually kind of neat; I had a lot more fun than I expected. I'm giving serious thought to picking up the Stingy Gamer's edition of BESM d20 (again, due to ocular hematomas...no art in that edition).

Brad

 

[Geoff Watson]

There are severe balance issues; the designers more or less admit this, and imply that any problems are with the player.

Geoff.

 

[argo]

I'm playing a mecha pilot in a fantasy-tech game right now. I'm also that group's de-facto walking rulebook as the DM is not a very big rules-wonk so I feel prety qualified to answer this question.

In short: I love BESM d20 and d20 Mecha. I think that both are great systems that really capture the feel of multiple genres of high-powered adventuring. However, the poster who said the book needs to come with a "Vetran DM's Only" sticker is quite correct. To me it feels much like working in a Unix operating system; vastly powerfull but the only thing worse than being a novice (in which case you don't know how to get started) is knowing just a little bit (in which case you are bound to get yourself in trouble). A BESM DM needs to treat the ruleset as a toolbox. The rules are meant to cover any possible genre of anime and you should not try to use everything at once but instead pick and choose what suits the feel of your campaign.

Specifically, the way we treat BESM is to aproach it as a toolset for point-based d20 character creation. This means we drop the combat skills and many of the other hold-overs from tri-stat BESM (if you have a copy of Tri-Stat it is easy to see where they simply imported things) and re-introduce some standard d20 rules such as: AoO's, movement measured in feet/round rather than the Tri-Stat miles per hour, many of the combat feats and a few other miscelaneous pieces. Basically we use the atributes and defects to build characters and ignore most of the other changes.

Regarding your question about buying your stats, we also noted that the designers seemed to forget you have to buy your stat up to 10 before you stop getting penalties in d20. Instead we roll for stats normally and then let characters buy stat-boosts via the Enhance atribute as normal. This tends to give us characters with uber-stats but we also tend not to play with a ton of magical loot (its not in-genre) so the absence of belts of giant strength and so forth help balance it out. Also, a good house rule we hit upon was that for each game the DM will cap the number of ranks you can take in any single atribute (exceptions made on a case-by-case basis) this prevents Adventurers from walking around with a 80Str as was pointed out earlier as well as other game-breaking effects from having, say, Rank 8 Mind Control or something. In general this is a very good way to control the power-level in a BESM game which could otherwise get quite out of hand.

The Own A Big Mecha atribute, in combination with d20 Mecha, is a great game mechanic and a lot of fun but very time-consuming for the player and DM to work out all the little details. I think that the costs to build a mech in d20 Mecha are quite balanced. At first the cost of some things like speed and AI seem very high but you will quickly find that if you don't try to max out armor and buy every enhancement possible that you will have plenty of points to go around, in particular the special attacks cost much less than you'd think once you add them all up. The only caveat I would mention is that if you are building a giant robot (as opposed to powered armor or some other mecha) then unless it is a game where everybody has giant robots you should be carefull as it is a little difficult to run a game when three players are size medium and one is in a size gargantuan mech. The Dynamic Sorcery atribute we do not use, not because it is too expensive (magic-users are expected to buy the extra energy points atribute repeatedly) but because we like the Magic atribute so much better.

Regarding the Adventurer class. We house-ruled that he has a d6HD, a 3/4 BAB, and may pick one save (players choice) to be his good save. This still leaves him with fewer character points than the other classes but now he can actually spend them on atributes he wants rather than taking Attack Combat mastery ever other level.

So, to take the game I'm playing in right now as an example. We rolled our stats with 4d6 drop lowest, and then bought atributes with 32 character points and a cap of 3 ranks in any atribute (unless the DM waves it for a particular character). This has given us characters who feel very much like high-powered dnd characters with regards to what they can do but whose actual abilities are very different from what you normally see in dnd. Each party member has come out as very unique with a mix of atributes and defects that probably will never be exactly duplicated. One other thing that we've noted while making test characters with BESM is that, with these house rules, levels are much less important than character points. In a BESM game the character you build with your startin character points is very close to the character he will be at level 20, his class will only make him better at what he does, not add new abilites. This is another change from dnd that I think captures the spirit of an anime game quite well.

At any rate, that was a longer post than I had intended. If you have any other questions feel free to ask though.

Later.