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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9167812" data-attributes="member: 93670">Why is that deserving of an answer?  The monk has quite a few abilities.  Not all of them fall cleanly under those three labels & one of them is relying on misrepresented or obviously incorrect whiteroom calculations.[spoiler="For example"]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">UAD:  This is in direct conflict with the basic style of d&d.  I've seen plenty of barbarians wear some form of armor because pumping con+dex and still needing to focus on strength is more difficult than pumping dex+wis and being able to dump strength.  This is a subjective tossup with clear strong points that lean towards monk at the expense of the GM's toolbox of incentives gameplay no matter which direction the scales lean.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Weapon mastery: I too think weapon mastery is badly designed as was nicely described in post <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/whats-not-going-to-cost-discipline-points-for-the-monk-to-do-now.700350/post-9164540" target="_blank">53</a> & <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/whats-not-going-to-cost-discipline-points-for-the-monk-to-do-now.700350/post-9164601" target="_blank">56</a>.  It's also impossible to rank right now because packet7, pg14:"[ispoiler]DESIGN NOTE: MAGIC ITEMS FOR UNARMED STRIKES AND IMPROVISED WEAPONS The 2024 Dungeon Master’s Guide will include magic items that enhance Unarmed Strikes and Improvised Weapons. These items will support the Monk, Brawler Fighter, and College of Dance Bard, along with other characters who rely on Unarmed Strikes or Improvised Weapons.[/ispoiler]"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Martial Arts:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bonus unarmed strike:  There is no clear comparison but it's already been demonstrated that it compares very favorably to barbarian not using rage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dextrous attacks:  Dexterity is quite possibly the more overvalued stat in 5e & this allows monk to ignore strength entirely.  There is no comparison</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Martial Arts Die:  This is objectively bad design that disempowers the GM by reducing their ability to incentivize & reward players.  Past editions even <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/giving-an-ad-d-feel-to-5e.679228/post-8243611" target="_blank">spoke at length </a>about such things</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Martial discipline/Totally-not-just-ki discipline points. This is difficult to compare on the objective scale you are asking for but it's worth noting that monk gets to short rest nova with these by abusing shot rest mechanics in a way that hurts the barbarian who would like their rage to continue into the next fight rather than stop for yet another short rest.  Barbarian of course has rage uses but those are sensibly linked to long rest recovery to match the attrition based adventuring day design of d&d.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Flurry of blows:  LeTsTaKeAsHoRtReStLeTsTaKeAsHoRtReSt  Once again this is impossible to rate until wotc reveals how they intend to shift from ki points for everything to limited charge but no further resource cost linked abilities.  It too has been shown to compare very favorably</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Patient Defense:  LeTsTaKeAsHoRtReStLeTsTaKeAsHoRtReSt  Once again this is impossible to rate until wotc reveals how they intend to shift from ki points for everything to limited charge but no further resource cost linked abilities.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Step of the Wind:  LeTsTaKeAsHoRtReStLeTsTaKeAsHoRtReSt  Once again this is impossible to rate until wotc reveals how they intend to shift from ki points for everything to limited charge but no further resource cost linked abilities.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Unarmored movement/Fast movement: +10feet is +10 feet but the base rogue does not seem to get this kind of flat +move speed bonus like these two classes</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Deflect Missiles:  There is nothing to compare to because this is a defensive ability that can turn an attack against the monk into an attack against an opponent</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Slow fall: This is an ill fitting artifact from<a href="https://youtu.be/9msXvGzyKW8?t=67" target="_blank"> old school pre-Hickman dungeon crawls</a> where pit traps were common & should be removed. There is nothing to compare it to though.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">extra attack/extra attack.  This is the same feature but while the barbarian specializes in having slightly bigger damage dice the monk has had one or two additional attacks over the barbarian & that will continue.  It's already been shown how the monk does quite favorably there</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stunning strike:  This is abhorrently designed for so many reasons and it's impossible to assign a value without knowing how or if wotc intends to correct it</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Empowered strike:  Deal force damage with unarmed strikes.  Force seems to be the damage type magic weapons will be dealing & that makes this pretty equivalent on both sides</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Evasion:  Really tough to compare & difficult to assign a value because so much depends on gameplay & monster/adventure choices the GM makes</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Heightened metabolism:  Again this has no clear comparison & does not fit cleanly into any of your categories.  Likewise it too is impossible  to rank until we see more about wotc's shift from ki consuming abilities to limited use ones</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Acrobatic Movement: This ability is written to rob the GM of their ability to engage in <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/introduction#3TheDMnarratestheresultsoftheadventurersactions" target="_blank">step3</a> of the playloop and should not exist as written.  It's impossible to assign value to an ability designed to <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeNdC8hVIT0" target="_blank">hold up a hand & say skip to the GM</a>... However, the noclip result can be pretty significant</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">So on & so forth</li> </ul>[/spoiler]You are trying to define a class that covers an extremely broad swath of options & abilities based on a blinkered set of metrics that exclude much of the class's capabilities from consideration.[/ispoiler]</blockquote>

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