What's stopping WOTC from going back to 3.5?

[GregoryOatmeal]

Edit: My thesis was wrong. 4E actually does have a surprisingly large fan base and unlike the folks ranting about "imaginary numbers" I have data to prove it. The RPG.net poll suggests the game has an older fanbase that stick with the game through edition changes.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php...e-best-and-when-did-you-start-playing-D-amp-D
http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...eons-dragons-editions-where-do-you-stand.html


With Monte Cook back at WOTC everyone's talking about 5E. Before the game is even announced I'm very skeptical of buying a new system, as I already have various resources for 2E, 3E, 4E, C&C, and PF. This game would have to be unbelievably good for me to invest money in it. I have a feeling I'm not alone.

I'm not trying to flare an edition war, I'm not even commenting on the quality of the games - I actually like 4E. I just want to talk about what I've noticed amongst gamers in my community and the economics of the market. I'll play anything - which is part of the reason I gave up on 4E. Everyone I know seems to hate it. I know like 7 circles of gamers and I just can't find enough 4E players. Some things I've noticed amongst the gamers I know.

• I live in a college town. I can't comment on kids under 18 but most of the adults (20s, 30s, 40s) seem to feel similar about 4E. These notes may be age-biased.
• Of the 40 or so gamers I know I'm probably one of the five that's interested in playing 4E. After years of running it I prefer 3.5 or PF or C&C. I just assume most gamers I meet don't like 3.5 because it's almost always true.
• Everyone who plays games regularly has played 3.5
• Amongst D&D games (I'm referring to WOTC, TSR, or Paizo Dungeons and Dragons games or clones, not Cthulu/Dragon Age/etc.) about 60% run on 3.5 rules. 20% are Pathfinder. I've heard of two AD&D 2E groups and two 4E groups.
• I've never met anyone in this town that subscribed to D&D Insider.
• Most gamers I know that have gaming collections worth more than $500 have stopped purchasing D&D books entirely.
• The most frequently recommended gaming purchase to new gamers if the 3.5 PHB. That incredibly popular book is out of print.
• 3.5 is far more popular than Pathfinder. People say the ship has sailed but most players I know haven't made the switch.
• The players that play Encounters at the local comic store don't even tend to like 4E or the Encounters format. They tend to show up because they need a D&D fix and don't have time for anything else.
• The WOTC staff is incredibly small. The release catalog looks very sparse. 3E saw a flurry of 1st and 3rd party books on just about anything. They weren't always good but apparently the demand was there.
• People I know tend to make their gaming purchases at used book stores and not the comic shop that sells new D&D products.

While I respect their attempt at moving forward, it really doesn't seem pragmatic for WOTC to release products that aren't 3.5 compatible. It makes sense that WOTC wants to attract a younger audience and boost revenue with D&D Insider but it just doesn't seem to be working. Paizo, meanwhile, seems to be flourishing using the old business model of printed products and a complicated and wonky rules system. But it really doesn't seem like Paizo has captured even half of the 3.5 market.

I've read on these forums "These people won't be happy with WOTC unless they rerelease 3.5". Well...why don't they? All of my personal experience indicates that group of consumers that cling to an out of print game is larger than the 4E base and the 3.5 base. Gamers would swoon to a "D&D Classic Revival" campaign that would immediately revive WOTC's image. Players that switched over to PF could still buy new 3.5 products since they're compatible. They could have D&D Insider support 3.5 as well. We could see Dark Sun for 3.5. What's stopping them?

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

On a somewhat related note, it may be telling that Gary Gygax always wanted TSR to reprint AD&D, his baby. Monte Cook was tied to the development of 3E so he may be pushing for WOTC to revive his most successful product.

 

[Ron]

WotC sells the same products at each edition. They already released a full 3.5 line and, thus, they will have trouble creating new products for it. Also, customers who want this kind of thing are already served by Paizo and thus WotC will have to differentiate their line.

Anyway, Mearls column clearly champions an edition inclusive enough to attract players interested in a less structured game with less detailed rules. Third edition is pretty much the opposite of this goal, reaon why I find Cook return to the development team quite weird.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

1) I think WotC has the reputation, pull, infrastructure, $$ and the skillsets to support multiple RPG products at one time, including prior editions.

2) I doubt that they would republish/revise prior editions in anything but barebones physical product supplemented by mostly PDFs or other electronic data formats. Part of that is because of the number of retroclones already in the market. Part of that is because it is an echo of heir evolving business model.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Hey if they think that selling more 3.5 stuff would be worth their time, then they would.

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

WotC sells the same products at each edition. They already released a full 3.5 line and, thus, they will have trouble creating new products for it. Also, customers who want this kind of thing are already served by Paizo and thus WotC will have to differentiate their line.

Anyway, Mearls column clearly champions an edition inclusive enough to attract players interested in a less structured game with less detailed rules. Third edition is pretty much the opposite of this goal, reaon why I find Cook return to the development team quite weird.

There's still a ton of ground they haven't covered from 1E/2E/4E. I'd love a Feywild/Shadowfell books, Planescape, Dark Sun, more Eberron, reprints of classic modules, and so on. And they totally recycled all their psionics/warriors splat books ad-nauseum and could do it again. I knew a lot of people that would buy anything that said "3.5" on it.

Theoretically they should buy Paizo stuff (or other retroclones), but for some reason a lot of them don't. "Dungeons and Dragons 3.5" as a brand is more valuable than "Dungeons and Dragons 4E" and the Pathfinder brand. When people talk about D&D they talk about 3.5, not Pathfinder.

And Mike Mearls says a bunch of stuff.

 

[Mark CMG]

*cough*PDFs*cough*

 

[Oryan77]

You can't go backwards! That's impossible! Well, you can if you do a prequel, but D&D has already released episodes 1, 2, 3, & 3.5.

They could have rereleased 3.5 in high def, but Paizo already did that and called it Pathfinder.

Plus, if they did go back to 3.5 (which they can't cause I already said how it is impossible) then all that would do is prove that they failed with 4e. Nobody likes to be wrong, and companies never admit to their mistake unless it is a publicity stunt to advertise Quikster or a sales pitch to advertise that guns will be back in the anniversary disk of the E.T. movie.

Wait, that's it! That's the angle. An anniversary release of older editions!

 

[Thunderfoot]

Mark - I think WotC is done with PDFs, they got burned pretty hard on the pirate market.

There are two main reason I see that WotC won't backtrack (plus a bonus secondary reason).

1) Marketing - Hasbro is the #1 seller of toys in North America and quite possibly the world. If you've noticed, they re-release successful lines (Transformers, GI Joe, My Little Pony, etc) about every 4 - 7 years. As WotC is a wholly owned subsidiary thereof, it makes sense that they too would follow this business model.
2) Money - following on the coat tales of 1 above, the reason for this is continued positive cash flow and a replenishing revenue stream.

B) Pride - I can't imagine any company going back to an older product other than Coca-Cola, and even they balked at it for a long time (New Coke was out and in production for 3 years before it was finally pulled completely.) Newer is always better in marketing regardless of proof to the contrary, that's why we have those nifty catch phrases like "shifting the paradigm", "wave of the future", "redefining style/class/precision/etc. and "raising the bar". Marketing research folks are a sad combination of yes men and scientists, however, they are for the most part, VERY effective at either guessing the next trend or forcing it upon you without you noticing. Either way, they are the rudder what steers the boat. And when it's all said and done, if the first two reasons are covered, then they can be forgiven by the board of directors.


EDIT: To clarify, I'm not slandering marketers or even bad mouthing them. I don't think marketing folks are Evil, maybe Chaotic Neutral (with Evil tendencies) but, they are efficient. While I don't agree with their tactics or the means, it is the most widely accepted business practice for product development and very unlikely to be replaced anytime soon.

 

[Fanaelialae]

There's still a ton of ground they haven't covered from 1E/2E/4E. I'd love a Feywild/Shadowfell books, Planescape, Dark Sun, more Eberron, reprints of classic modules, and so on. And they totally recycled all their psionics/warriors splat books ad-nauseum and could do it again. I knew a lot of people that would buy anything that said "3.5" on it.

Theoretically they should buy Paizo stuff (or other retroclones), but for some reason a lot of them don't. "Dungeons and Dragons 3.5" as a brand is more valuable than "Dungeons and Dragons 4E" and the Pathfinder brand. When people talk about D&D they talk about 3.5, not Pathfinder.

And Mike Mearls says a bunch of stuff.

They've stated in the past that setting books (Planescape, etc.) aren't as profitable as other books for them. While there is certainly a subsection of 3.5 players who will purchase anything with 3.5 stamped on it, there are also plenty of people who just aren't interested in Complete Warrior XVI. Had it been profitable for them to just keep cranking out new books along those lines, I have little doubt they would have done so.

IMO, there's so much already out there produced for 3.5 that it wouldn't be all that profitable for them to reprint it. The people who play 3.5 tend to have their books already. I'm fairly certain that new players can find a used PHB on ebay (a quick search found one for $11), or print the SRD to Lulu (or barring that, from their printer) for a reasonable price.

It certainly would be a kindness if WotC did offer a reasonable print on demand (or similar) service for out of print materials. I've little doubt though, that convincing the higher ups at Hasbro that they should internally support competition for the current edition would take quite some doing. It's entirely possible that WotC has tried to do just that and was denied. It isn't as though we'd hear of it if they had (due to NDAs and all that jazz).

Personally, I think it's very interesting (and great) news that Monte Cook is back on board, but I expect that when we eventually see 5e, it'll be a significantly different animal from both 3rd and 4e. (Albeit, informed to some greater or lesser degree by all editions.) Just because he was a major force behind 3rd edition doesn't mean that he doesn't have different ideas about how the game might be approached. As evidence, I'll cite the skill system suggested by Monte Cook in Mearl's column. A significant deviation from anything we saw in 3.x.