mxmarkargent
most frequently graded n for "needs improvement"
...and what do the old Greyhawk grognards have against the "new" (Living) Greyhawk?
What's the deal with Greyhawk...
- Thread starter mxmarkargent
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EricNoah
Adventurer
Hmmm ... starting out by calling the fans of the earlier Greyhawk "gronards" isn't the most polite way to start a conversation...
In any case, in a nutshell and as I understand it, the issue has to do with the development of the Greyhawk setting over its many years of life and the fact that it was created by Gary Gygax but then taken in a different direction by subsequent authors of the various setting updates through the years. It also, as I understand it, appears to be tied into the whole issue of Gary leaving TSR under less-than-ideal circumstances and no longer being in control of that particular intellectual property. And then you can add to that the less-than-royal treatment Greyhawk has gotten in 3rd Edition (yes it's the "base" D&D setting and there are 3E materials out for it, but less so by far than Forgotten Realms, for example).
I'm sure if I missed something it will be pointed out shortly.
I know this is a somewhat touchy issue for some folks but I know I can count on you not to bash each other over this, right?
In any case, in a nutshell and as I understand it, the issue has to do with the development of the Greyhawk setting over its many years of life and the fact that it was created by Gary Gygax but then taken in a different direction by subsequent authors of the various setting updates through the years. It also, as I understand it, appears to be tied into the whole issue of Gary leaving TSR under less-than-ideal circumstances and no longer being in control of that particular intellectual property. And then you can add to that the less-than-royal treatment Greyhawk has gotten in 3rd Edition (yes it's the "base" D&D setting and there are 3E materials out for it, but less so by far than Forgotten Realms, for example).
I'm sure if I missed something it will be pointed out shortly.
I know this is a somewhat touchy issue for some folks but I know I can count on you not to bash each other over this, right?
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
EricNoah said:
I didn't know "grognards" was a disparaging term, at least I've never seen anyone take it that way before. I've seen it used by wargamers to describe each other, almost affectionately.
EricNoah
Adventurer
Well you know, it's not in Webster's so I guess I've just always assumed from context that it meant something like "crotchety old geezer who doesn't like change." But then what do I know.
edit: hey, you learn something new every day. Here's an explanation:
http://members.aol.com/alanemrich/alanemrich/grognard.htm
edit: hey, you learn something new every day. Here's an explanation:
http://members.aol.com/alanemrich/alanemrich/grognard.htm
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From what I take from reading various replys on boards, Eric Noah is pretty much on the money.
People were disapointed with the development choises for GreyHawk (expecialy GreyHawk Wars) and the apperance of DracoLance and then Forgotten Realms moved players from GreyHawk into those settings, lowering Greyhawk sale figures.
GreyHawk is in a coma with RPGA mantaining the life support system.
BTW every book that comes out by WotC and does not carry a setting expecific logo is supposed to be based on GreyHawk and WotC 3rd ed FR support have not only had failed to impress me but actually move me away from it for good, I suspect that happening with me and FR is the same that happened with GreyHawk years ago, people that seen their campain setting being developed in a way they disliked and finally abandoned the setting because TSR could not "get it right" ...
People were disapointed with the development choises for GreyHawk (expecialy GreyHawk Wars) and the apperance of DracoLance and then Forgotten Realms moved players from GreyHawk into those settings, lowering Greyhawk sale figures.
GreyHawk is in a coma with RPGA mantaining the life support system.
BTW every book that comes out by WotC and does not carry a setting expecific logo is supposed to be based on GreyHawk and WotC 3rd ed FR support have not only had failed to impress me but actually move me away from it for good, I suspect that happening with me and FR is the same that happened with GreyHawk years ago, people that seen their campain setting being developed in a way they disliked and finally abandoned the setting because TSR could not "get it right" ...
EricNoah said:
Try "many different directions by many subsequent authors" and you'd have it right. Greyhawk has had about 6 different viewpoints on it, if I can count right. (Gygax, Bad-RPGA of Child's Play and Gargoyle, Carl Sarjeant, Roger Moore, Erik Mona, Living RPGA).
Living Greyhawk has the potential problem of being overseen by RPGA people rather than those immersed in the lore of Greyhawk. I don't mind this so much - it starts from the same base, and Greyhawk in its initial presentation was very much "here's the basis of the world - go and have fun with it", something different from the FR, where the creative hand has far more rested with WotC/TSR.
However, if you've been following Greyhawk from 1980 (or before), to find out that certain canonical modules have been ignored or rewritten can be annoying.
Cheers!
Black Omega
First Post
EricNoah said:
Already answered, I see.
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Alzrius
The EN World kitten
I'm going to chime in, as someone who wasn't one of the "old school" Greyhawk fans.
While Eric was right about how subsequent authors after Gary took the setting in different directions after he no longer was the guiding hand for the series, one in particular must be mentioned: Rose Estes.
Shortly after Gary's Greyhawk books concluded, Rose Estes took over with writing new Greyhawk novels. The best way I can describe them is to borrow a phrase from "Porphyry House of Horrors" adventure in Dungeon #95: To say her work is a boil on an otyugh's ass is to insult otyugh's everywhere. I won't endeavor to explain just why her work is so gut-wrenchingly awful, since it's already done far more eloquently here: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~monax002/Council/resources/rose/review.html
Part of the more recent grousing about Greyhawk is its treatment under the RPGA. Most Greyhawk fans don't like it that their world has been permanently left in "stall", never advancing or growing or changing. That, in fact, growths and changes are still slipped in between the cracks all over the place is little comfort to them (everywhere from new articles in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer to a new evil Greyhawk deity being obliquely added to the pantheon in the Book of Vile Darkness).
All in all, it seems that people are upset that the World of Greyhawk isn't getting its fair share of cohesive, coherent, holistic treatment that will set it on a clear course forward again.
While Eric was right about how subsequent authors after Gary took the setting in different directions after he no longer was the guiding hand for the series, one in particular must be mentioned: Rose Estes.
Shortly after Gary's Greyhawk books concluded, Rose Estes took over with writing new Greyhawk novels. The best way I can describe them is to borrow a phrase from "Porphyry House of Horrors" adventure in Dungeon #95: To say her work is a boil on an otyugh's ass is to insult otyugh's everywhere. I won't endeavor to explain just why her work is so gut-wrenchingly awful, since it's already done far more eloquently here: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~monax002/Council/resources/rose/review.html
Part of the more recent grousing about Greyhawk is its treatment under the RPGA. Most Greyhawk fans don't like it that their world has been permanently left in "stall", never advancing or growing or changing. That, in fact, growths and changes are still slipped in between the cracks all over the place is little comfort to them (everywhere from new articles in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer to a new evil Greyhawk deity being obliquely added to the pantheon in the Book of Vile Darkness).
All in all, it seems that people are upset that the World of Greyhawk isn't getting its fair share of cohesive, coherent, holistic treatment that will set it on a clear course forward again.
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