What's the deal with Greyhawk...

[Drakron]

I doubt it, 3.5 DMG will actually use a FR PtC instead of a GH PtC for a example of a world expecific PtC.

Anyway ...

The problem with development is that in many cases the autors ignored both older information and reader expectation.

If we see something being stated in older products we sure expect that newer products will state the same thing or at the very least explain the reason why its now diferent.

Problem was they did not do either, they change things and dont explain why things are now diferent, leading to belive that the autors simply dont care about the settings or the readers.

After all how you feel if in a novel series, lets say LotR, Leglogas was a elf in FotR and in TT he was a human?

 

[Remathilis]

One of the problem's I've seen with Greyhawk as the default setting is the on again/off again treatment of setting in the core-books. To whit.

* PHB - Example of Greyhawk deities, greyhawk wizard names in spells.
* DMG - Vague mentioning of Greyhawk in assassin flavor text, more info on deities. Off beat mention of classic dungeons.
* MM - Monster deities
* Sword and Fist - Fist of Hextor, Knight Protect of Great Kingdom PrC, mentions of both organizations
* Defenders of the Faith - More on deities (in church section), more monster deities, new domains given to core deities.
* Song and Silence - Offbeat mentions of famous dungeons, Temple Raider of Olidamarra
* Manual of the Planes - First mention of Oerth as default world name. Defines Great Wheel using only PHB deities.
* Deities and Demi-Gods - All PHB deities (plus a few monsters) statted and defined, but no new specific info.
* D&D Gazetteer - Generic info on Oerth as D&D setting. One map, 1-2 paragraphs per kingdom, abit on geography, and 5 new deities (Sehanie, Iuz, Photus, Rao, Al-Akalabar)
* Return to Temple of Elemental Evil - Lots of specific info, perhaps their best "core" greyhawk info book.

If I missed something, it probably was even more minisucle than these. Greyhawk has had nothing but lip service as a default setting, and this is because a.) No OGL compatability, forcing every publisher to be very generic or use thier own setting, and b.) They still want the core-rule generic, so they refuse to embrace Greyhawk as anything more than a namedrop.

 

[WizarDru]

If I missed something, it probably was even more minisucle than these. Greyhawk has had nothing but lip service as a default setting, and this is because a.) No OGL compatability, forcing every publisher to be very generic or use thier own setting, and b.) They still want the core-rule generic, so they refuse to embrace Greyhawk as anything more than a namedrop.

You missed the Living Greyhawk Gazeeter and the Living Greyhawk Journals, which is missing quite a bit, indeed. Don't confuse the base Gazeeter with the LGG, which was over a hundred pages, with usually two to four pages for some countries, a listing of almost all of the major Greyhawk dieties, a better (but not great) map, and a large amount of campaign material, but almost no Greyhawk 'crunch'. The LGJ had a map of the City of Greyhawk, and they began detailing the city. They also had (and continue to have) custom Greyhawk specific prestige classes (such as the Rheenee barge protectors or wise women, for example), new monsters and old one restatted for 3e (such as the Death Knights, with template) and so forth.

I mean, I'm not saying I disagree, but let's give some props where they belong. You're kind of poking Erik Mona in the eye, there. The RPGA, as well, has also released some good Greyhawk materials...but they don't see mass consumption, at all.

I think making Greyhawk OGL would be an interesting move, but I think that WotC wouldn't see it as serving their purposes...and might go counter to making it the generic settnig they desire. On the other hand, they haven't made any objection about Canonfire!, , and seem to quietly endorse it. So to, many of the Living Greyhawk web sites, which offer some nice (but scant) materials for the game.

In theory, letting the membership advance the storyline is great. But due to low funding and inconsistent management, in practice, it hasn't lived up to the promise.

 

[GravyFingerz]

Greyhawk is doomed - it will never retains its former glory without EGG being at the helm and given complete creative control.

You might as well wait for Kenzer & Co to release the Garweeze Wurld campaign setting. It's like Greyhawk, but not destroyed and burnt and ridiculed through a bunch of hack author's works and poorly supported companies, and such.

 

[herald]

I disagree about the whole death of Greyhawk thing. Dave Arneson certainly had some input to Greyhawk, as sections of it are directly lifted from his setting.

This is not to belittle Gary's work, but honestly, Living Greyhawk is doing a great job fleshing some of the materials. I enjoyed the Paladins of Greyhawk write up in the latest Dragon. I even liked the 2e suplement's for the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Pomarj.

Personally I like the amount that is coming out and I like what I'm getting.

 

[Remathilis]

I figured LGG amd LGJ (and most of RPGA) were given. I just ment for being a core setting, there isn't alot of... setting.

 

[grodog]

I've long been a fan of Greyhawk, primarily in its 1e and 3e incarnations (I didn't play D&D 2nd edition, so I never played GH Wars-era materials at the time of their release, though I have enjoyed picking up those books as time, funds, and opportunity permit).

I have also been a long-time fan of Ed Greenwood's early FR articles from Dragon; I enjoyed them for these of living, imminent history, lurking just outside the bounds of Dragon's pages: the names, histories, kingdoms, etc. I wanted my GH games to have that level of rich verisimilitude, and though I liked the GH setting more, I certainly considered FR GH's peer.

I won't bother to explain my views on why some folks hate various versions of GH or why people see this huge difference between FR and GH (there are differences, but I consider them pretty trivial, in the big picture). I do, however, want to point out that there are GH fans out there who embrace all eras, without needing to pick apart one over the other, and there are a similiar minority of fans who embrace GH and FR, too....

 

[I'm A Banana]

[Sienfeld]

I mean what's the deal with it? It's not in black and white. It doesn't involve birds. You call something greyhawk, and it's not gray or hawklike. It's like calling Heironeous "Chaotic Evil Blackguard Child-Molestor!" It's just not accurate! Soon, you'll have people going around calling people tomatoes and rocks tarrasques and Carrot Top funny. I mean, come on!

[/Sienfeld]

 

[Oberton]

Who needs support from WOTC

I hear everyone saying they want more support for the greyhawk world, but one of the main complaints about Forgotten Realms is that there is to much change and support! Most of my friends who run Greyhawk like the starting point product and move on from there! They don't want WOTC to advance the campaign because they can do that. They know they will have complete control over the world and its direction. So perhaps this whole thread should be named: I want WOTC to do my world building for me... I got tired of waiting for them and moved onto another world...

 

[WizarDru]

Well, for myself, I don't want an FR-style of novels, constant updates and mind-numbing detail. What I want is enough detail so that I don't have to spend as much time as developing my own campaign from scratch, and some new 'crunch' material from time to time.

I don't want 'The Silver Marches', but a "Monsters of Greyhawk" or "Magic of Greyhawk" wouldn't be unappreciated, if done properly.

I don't much care for what's happening in Onwall this month, or whether or not the giants have been evicted from Geoff. But I'd like some stats on those giants, and the details of the Animus under 3E (thank you, Herr Mona!). YMMV.