Whats the Exotic Weapon Master?

[Caliban]

But that doesn't mean that the monk took three Exotic Weapon feats. There is a big difference between having them on your class weapon list and taking the feats. The difference is that the requirement is the EWP feats, not simply being proficient in 3 exotic weapons. Big diff, there Big C.

I don't see how there is any difference at all. If you are proficient with it, you have the exotic weapon Proficiency feat for it. (That's what being proficient with it means.)

It's exactly like a class virtual feat: The ranger's ambidexterity and two weapon fighting let it qualify for other feats or prestige classes that have them as a prerequisite, and a monks Improved Unarmed Strike feat allows them to qualify for feats or classes that require it.

And CRGreathouse, I do hope they address this in the final draft, one way or the other. It does sound like an interesting class though.

 

[Aaron L]

I'm pretty sure that if you have a feat, whether it is from class starting abilities or character advancement, that a feat is a feat.

Now, this class gives all those benefites with ALL exoctic weapons? Every one that ever comes out? That could be a mistake.

 

[Chris Coulter]

Monk weapons

But wouldn't the monk simply have only one of the virtual feats required that covered all of the monk weapon list?

Or does the fighter's martial weapon prof. consist of 20 or more virtual feats?

Food for thought.

I say the monk's weapon list is one virtual feat at best, and it may or may not even qualify as exotic due to the monk's unarmed training that those weapons seem to work in concert with, as they get the unarmed base attack.


Chris-

P.S. Hey, if I'm a mage and I take Martial Weapon Proficiency, why can't I use all of them like the fighter can? Feats , virtual and real, don't look like they have the same effect even with identical names....

 

[Zhure]

We might be jumping the gun, as we don't have full information on this PrC. That being said, what happens to a Fighter who dips into three levels?

He uses 3 EWP, probably only one of which is useful. There's enough similarity between an Urgosh, a Dire Flail and an Orcish Double Axe, most characters won't get any two of them.

The other categories of EWP's are the spiked chain (reach + close), ranged, and a few miscellaneous ones (kukri, monk weapons).

I suppose it's conceivable for a Fighter to take EWP: Shuriken, EWP: Dire Flail and maybe Spiked Chain, or some similar combination that isn't a batch of completely "wasted" overlapping weapons, or are weapons that have little usefulness. For instance, a kukri isn't that much better than a dagger except in some circumstances. A hand crossbow is a sub-par choice, as is the repeating crossbow. Shuriken are really only good for weak characters to use as a poison delivery system... and so on. The "miscellaneous" EWF tend to be sub-par "flavor" choices.

Overall, I'd label that as 1-2 wasted feats, not three.

In exchange, the Exotic Weapon Master gets numerous EWF's at first level, then numerous weapon focuses, then numerous weapon specializations. Mostly these are redundant, since you aren't going to be carrying seven or eight weapons. It'll only be really helpful if the treasure haul happens to have a +n Magic Halfling kama and the party has no one else capable of using it well. Essentially that comes across as a bonus of 2-4 feats.

A fighter gives up 3 levels and 1-2 feats to gain 2-4 feats. His net gain is 3 feats, or 1-2 more than he normally gets. It's a nice class for Fighters, but not a game breaker, I don't think.

Now if the requirements would include the virtual feats of a Monk (monk weapons), a Rogue (hand crossbow), or a Bard (whip), then it becomes a whole new scenario as these characters don't have nearly as many feats and gaining access to a bunch of bonus feats, one of which is Specialization that they normally can't get, that's quite a lot more powerful. I'm thinking specifically of a Monk/Exotic Weapon Master/Weapon Master (Lajatang). That'd be beefy, but hard to get. A more reasonable goal might be Ranger/Exotic Weapon Master/Master of Chains. Ooooh. Sounds crunchy.

I think I'll wait to pass judgement but the Prc still sounds powerful, though not as powerful as the surface facts make them seem.

I hope that provided some food for thought,
Greg

 

[hong]

One thing I notice is that the power level of this PrC is (almost) entirely determined by the DM. If there aren't any exotic weapons to use, there's not much point in being an exotic weapon master. The player might decide to make her own spiked chain or two-bladed sword or whatever, but she could have done that without taking this class. As such, the class is flexible but not really susceptible to abuse.

 

[drnuncheon]

We might be jumping the gun, as we don't have full information on this PrC. That being said, what happens to a Fighter who dips into three levels?

He uses 3 EWP, probably only one of which is useful. There's enough similarity between an Urgosh, a Dire Flail and an Orcish Double Axe, most characters won't get any two of them.

The other categories of EWP's are the spiked chain (reach + close), ranged, and a few miscellaneous ones (kukri, monk weapons).

Um, you forgot the all-time most often taken ones: Bastard Sword & Dwarven Waraxe. (The 'extra damage' category)

I can definitely see a fighter wanting both EWP Bastard Sword and EWP Spiked chain, for example, and adding a third isn't too much of a hardship. Heck, if you were a human you could have that at 1st level! Then it's just a matter of waiting until the BAB is high enough.

On the other hand, as various folks have said, WPs are feats that *decrease* in value the more of them you take (as opposed to feats which work together & thus increase in value).

With those 3 feats the fighter could be taking Dodge, Expertise & Mobility (and well on the way to Whirlwind Attack) or Power Attack, Cleave, and Sunder, or Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot...all of which are feats that can all be used at the same tme and add to each other's value.

I guess you could use EWP: Bastard Sword and EWP: Kukri together (or even EWP: Bastard sword and EWP: Dwarven Waraxe if you were masochistic) but for the most part it's going to cut down on the stuff you can do, and for non-fighters its even worse.

The one thing I'd be interested to see is the effect on other Prestige Classes - having WF and WSpec opens up lots of various "weapon master" classes. (The wizard did how much damage with his spiked chain? And he cast shocking grasp through it?)

J

 

[Corwin]

I am going to have to continue to disagree. There is a difference between a virtual feat (such as a monk getting improved trip for free or the ranger's two-weapon fighting abilities) and weapon proficiency lists. Fighters do not have dozens of Martial Weapon Feats, the just know how to use them because they are on their weapon list. I strongly doubt that monks, bards and rogues are intended to get any kind of advantage towards achieving the prereq's for this PrC just becuae they have certain exotic weapons on their lists. That's just silly.

The PrC specifically lists Feat requirements of Exotic Weapon Feats. I do not see anyting in the monk description that indicates that they are getting bonus proficiencies to use the weapons on their list.

Just curious, but wouldn't it have been easier for the rules to have just given these classes the actual EWP feats as bonus feats if their was no difference? Why not just list the monk as recieving 4 bonus feats covering thier exotic monk weapons instead of listing them under weapons they can use? I see the difference, anyway.

 

[Crothian]

It's an interesting class idea, but you can still only use one (or two) weapons at once. Plus most characters stick with a single weapon most of their lives. Especially when they get a magical one.

The Prestige Class seems great for Gladiators, though.

 

[Caliban]

I am going to have to continue to disagree. There is a difference between a virtual feat (such as a monk getting improved trip for free or the ranger's two-weapon fighting abilities) and weapon proficiency lists.

Please explain what practical difference there is then, because I'm not seeing it.

Fighters do not have dozens of Martial Weapon Feats, the just know how to use them because they are on their weapon list.

That's what the feat represents: adding the weapon to your list of weapons. Fighters do indeed have dozens of Martial Weapon Proficiency's.

I strongly doubt that monks, bards and rogues are intended to get any kind of advantage towards achieving the prereq's for this PrC just becuae they have certain exotic weapons on their lists. That's just silly.

All the feat represents is knowing how to use the weapon properly.

Having the weapon on your class weapon liste represents knowing how to use the weapon properly.

What exactly is the difference?

They may not have intended the monk to have an advantage, or they have intended exactly that. I'm not going to worry about it until I read the actual class prerequisites.

They could easily state the prerequisite as: "You must gain proficiency in three exotic weapons beyond those granted by your class or classes." in the actual book.

If they don't make such a distinction in the class itself, then the monk will indeed qualify, because the rules make no such distinction, as far as I can tell.

The PrC specifically lists Feat requirements of Exotic Weapon Feats. I do not see anyting in the monk description that indicates that they are getting bonus proficiencies to use the weapons on their list.

And I fail to see how having it on your class list is any different than having the EWP for it.

If you can point to something in the rules that makes them different, I'd like to see it.

Just curious, but wouldn't it have been easier for the rules to have just given these classes the actual EWP feats as bonus feats if their was no difference? Why not just list the monk as recieving 4 bonus feats covering thier exotic monk weapons instead of listing them under weapons they can use? I see the difference, anyway.

What is the difference between an "actual" EWP and knowing how to use it because your class training taught it to you?

As far as I can tell, the EWP just represents you training for it on your own time.

 

[Artoomis]

Here's the question, restated:

Is being proficient in a weapon the same as having the weapon proficency feat? Or, to put in another way, does being proficient in three exotic weapons mean you have three exotic weapon feats?

An interesting question, to be sure. As a sideline keep in mind that there are a few different exotic weapon feats - any feat that requires you to pick a specific weapon for which you decide to pick an exotic weapon is, by its very nature, an exotic weapon feat.

That said, I agree with Caliban. Weapon proficiency in an exotic weapon is the same as a feat, so a monk would qualify as having three exotic weapon feats (virtual feats).