What's wrong with this PrC?

[GuardianLurker]

This is a prestige class I'm developing for my homebrew world. It's pretty powerful, but it isn't reachable until 7th level, and it has some hefty penalties attached. It also relies pretty heavily on Monte's Book of Hallowed Might.

What do you all think?

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Knight of the Rebellion
The Order of the Rebellion is a secretive order of knights and monks whose charge is apparently that of guarding the free people of the Empire from the possible tyranny of the nobles, including the Emperor himself. The Order plays a very active role in the goverance of the Empire, and its members attend every installation of a noble, from the least to the most high. The higher the noble, the more members who attend the investiture. Every noble then swears his Oath of Conduct, promising to guard and aid the free people in his domain from any and all dangers, and to always be worthy of their trust and stewardship. Members of the Order always appear in public masked, and no-one knows their complete number, nor the standards required for admission. It is known that any free person is eligible, for a number have remarked on being other than of noble descent. It is also rumored that the members of the Order pledge their very lives and souls to upholding the Order's charge. Since the Order began, no member has ever apparently broken his oath and betrayed the Order.

Requirements
Nationality : Must be a citizen of the Free Empire
BAB : +6
Feats : Improved Unarmed Strike, Swear an Oath, Devout Faith
Profession(Lawyer) : 5 ranks
Sense Motive : 5 ranks
Special : Offered membership by current knight, Must swear the Oath of the Guardian

Fastest Path Monk or Bard 8, Bard 2/Fighter 5

Hit Die d8

BAB as monk

UBAB as monk

Saves Good Fort, Poor Ref, Good Will

Skill Points 4+Int
Class Skills Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge(History), Listen, Profession(Lawyer), Sense Motive, Spot

Weapons All simple and martial weapons

Armor No armor, and all shields

LV___Special
1____Vow of Fidelity(The Order of the Rebellion)
1____Succor
2, 4, 6, 8, 10, (+2)
_____Augury
3, 6, 9, (12, +3)
_____Discern Lie
5____Vow of Poverty, Accolade
7, (12, +5)
_____Lesser Geas
10, (15, +5)
_____Geas


The Oath of the Guardian
Every knight swears the following oath:

I, [the knight's name], in the presence of the Order, and my god,
do solemnly and truly, with all by body, mind, and soul, swear that
I shall permit no noble of the Empire of the Free People, no matter how high of rank, to be, or become, a tyrant.
I shall not permit any citizen of the Empire of the Free People to be enslaved, nor permit anyone to be enslaved within the Empire of the Free People.
I shall not permit any citizen of the Empire of the Free People to be above, below, or outside the law, but hold all fully accountable.
The laws of the Empire of the Free People will always serve justice.
Should I ever break this Oath, or any other Oaths and Vows that I make take as a Knight of the Rebellion, I call upon my god to wrack my body, mind, and soul with the pain and agony such a traitor as I would have proved to be deserves.


A knight who breaks this Oath becomes an Ex-Knight. The Oath cannot be forcibly broken by any spell short of a miracle, or wish, though a knight may choose to voluntarily fail his saving throw to a break enchantment spell. Voluntarily failing the saving throw is tantamount to breaking the Oath, and all the normal penalties apply. Should the Oath be broken against the Knight's will, he suffers the penalties of being an ex-Knight until he has successfully atoned (in a timely fashion), at which point he regains all of his abilities.

Succor
Any Knight of the Rebellion can expect aid and comfort from any citizen of the Empire to the best of the citizen's ability.

Vow of Fidelity
At first level, the Knight receives the Vow of Fidelity feat (regardless of whether or not he meets the prerequisites), applied to any member of the Order of the Rebellion. Each knight is capable of recognizing other knights through a series of signs and challenges. A knight who breaks this vow is stripped of his special abilities and suffers all the penalties of being an ex-knight.

Augury
At second level, the knight is able to use the second level Cleric spell Augury as a spell-like ability, once per day. This increases by one time per day every two levels thereafter.

Discern Lie
At third level, the knight is able to use the fourth level Cleric spell Discern Lies as a spell-like ability once per day. This ability increases by one time per day every three levels thereafter.

Vow of Poverty
At fifth level, the Knight receives the Vow of Poverty feat, regardless of whether or not he meets the prerequisites. A knight who breaks this vow is stripped of his special abilities and suffers all the penalties of being an ex-knight.

Accolade
At fifth level, the Knight receives the Accolade feat, regardless of whether or not he meets the prerequisites.

Lesser Geas
At seventh level, the knight is able to use the fourth level Wizard spell Lesser Geas as a spell-like ability once per day. This ability increases by one time per day every five levels thereafter.

Geas
At tenth level, the knight is able to use the sixth level Wizard spell Geas as a spell-like ability once per day. This ability increases by one time per day every five levels thereafter.

Ex-Knights
An ex-Knight suffers the loss of all his prestige class levels, 1d6+prestige class level ability drain total spread evenly over Constitution, Strength, and Dexterity (in that order), and 1d6+prestige class level ability drain total spread evenly over Wisdom, Charisma, and Intelligence (in that order). In addition, until the knight has successfully completed his atonement, his natural healing rate is halved, and he cannot benefit from magical healing. An ex-Knight can never regain his status.

From the BoHM:
Swear an Oath, Devout Faith, Vow of Fidelity, Vow of Poverty, Accolade

 

[GuardianLurker]

ge-bump

I call your attention to the loss of all class LEVELS (not abilities, levels) when ex-Knight status is entered, the *very* hefty ability drains, and the fact that this does not allow Monks to multi-class freely [Yes, I'm still using that rule].

Counter-balancing this, the class offers some pretty hefty spell-like abilities, and a Monk UAB. And of course, a few free feats.

Originally, I thought it might be a tad over-powered; now I'm leaning towards under-powered.

No one has any comments or suggestions?

 

[GuardianLurker]

Additions...

Add the following skills to the Class skill list: Disguise, Hide, Move Silently

Add the following ability at every odd level (1,3,5,7,9,...): Guardian Power

Guardian Power
At first level, and every two levels thereafter, the Knight can choose one of the following abilities, usable once per day as an extraordinary ability. If the same ability is chosen more than once, the number of uses increases by one more per day.

Level
+Cha bonus__Ability________ Effect
1________ Sanctuary_______As first level Cleric spell
2________ Inspire Crowd____Allied humanoids within hearing (up to level * Cha bonus total HD) gain a +2 morale bonus to all rolls while aiding (or obeying) the Knight.
3________ Deflection_______ Add a +7 dodge bonus to AC for 1 rnd/level against all attacks
4________ Guardian's Eyes__ Cannot be flanked, or denied Dex bonus for 1 min/level
5________ Raise Crowd_____ Allied and neutral humanoids within hearing (up to level * Cha bonus total HD) must make a Will save (DC 15+level+Cha bonus) or feel compelled to aid or obey the Knight (as if they had a Helpful attitude).
6________ Improved Invisiblity As the fourth level Wizard spell
7________ Spell Immunity___ As the fourth level Cleric spell
8________ Dimension Door__ As the fourth level Wizard spell
9________ Greater Sanctuary As first level Cleric spell, but 1 creature/level
10_______ Scry___________ As fourth level Wizard spell

 

[Quip]

Looks pretty good. Nothing seems too powerful and indeed, probably is bit weaker than most prestige classes. Not too badly, though. The wide variety of abilites give this class versatility if nothing else.

Succor seems odd as a class feature, it should just be part of the flavor text but its not a huge matter.

One major point though, the penalty to an ex-Knight is far too severe. The loss of actual levels is unecessary and is something classes just shouldn't do. The ability score losses and healing restriction are just as bad of an idea, theres neither an in game justification nor a mechanical balancing factor to any of it. Just make it a loss of class abilities, nothing more.

 

[GuardianLurker]

I'm still not sure - remember, all the Guardian Powers are extra-ordinary, which means they can't be magically supressed.

Succor has precedent in a few other "noble" prestige classes - I think both Cavalier and Master Samurai have something similar. I admit it's a lot weaker than your average feat, but it has it's uses.

As for the penalties, they're supposed to be severe, to act as a brake against abuse; these guys have a TON of social power, even more than many high-level Clerics or Paladins.

The Oath of the Guardian is essentially being treated as an extremely high-powered Lesser Geas. I chose the lower-level spell as a base because the higher-level is fairly lethal.

The level drain is in there because the Oath says "wrack body, mind, and soul". The ability drains take care of the first two, and I couldn't think of an alternative for the last.

 

[Quip]

I don't recall any rule about retaining extraordinary abilities in any ex-classes, but in your case it shouldn't matter. Nearly every ability you have listed should be either supernatural or spell-like, especially those that are actual spells. And the one thing that should be extraordinary, succor, makes perfect sense to be taken away by leaving this class.

If you want to give a lesser geas penalty, then you should simply make a requirement that every member needs to be under the effects of a special lesser geas.

The penalty for abusing social power should be kept in game. Betraying those he was meant to protect can get him hunted down like a dog by his former allies, or somesuch.

Even though it says "wrack body, mind, and soul" it doesn't mean each must be represented in game terms. Soul can just be flavor text, no need to remove hit dice! I know of no other published class that functions in this way.

 

[GuardianLurker]

I don't recall any rule about retaining extraordinary abilities in any ex-classes, but in your case it shouldn't matter. Nearly every ability you have listed should be either supernatural or spell-like, especially those that are actual spells. And the one thing that should be extraordinary, succor, makes perfect sense to be taken away by leaving this class.

Are you aware of a rule that I am not? The MM only says:

Extraordinary abilities are non-magical, don't go away in an antimagic field, and are not subject to anything that disrupts magic. Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless noted otherwise.

While I admit that it isn't typical for an extraordinary ability to be limited in uses per day, it is more in-line with the effect I want.

If you want to give a lesser geas penalty, then you should simply make a requirement that every member needs to be under the effects of a special lesser geas.

I did. Every member is required to take the Oath of the Guardian. I didn't explicitly call it a lesser geas because it isn't one, but only based on it.

The penalty for abusing social power should be kept in game.

The penalty is for breaking the Oath, not necessarily abusing the social power. If it helps, think of the Oath as a paladin's code of conduct with *big* teeth.

Even though it says "wrack body, mind, and soul" it doesn't mean each must be represented in game terms. Soul can just be flavor text, no need to remove hit dice! I know of no other published class that functions in this way.

The Oath is not flavor text. If it was, I wouldn't have even bothered to write it out, but have left it completely ambiguous.

Perhaps bestowing permanent negative levels, half of which can be restored after atoning is a better answer.

As for the last - this is House Rules. All *kinds* of stuff gets proposed in here that doesn't have a published precedent.

 

[Quip]

As for the last - this is House Rules. All *kinds* of stuff gets proposed in here that doesn't have a published precedent.

Well, ya got me there.

And again, this is house rules, where you can post your stuff to get peoples opinions. And its my opinion that level drain of an ex-class isn't a good idea, and an ability that is like a spell it should be "spell-like ability". But it's your game in the end, if it makes you happy go right ahead with it.

The more important thing is that the class is balanced powerwise. Unarmed attack bonus and solid stats, plus a variety of powers to keep things interesting. Have fun with it!

 

[GuardianLurker]

And its my opinion that level drain of an ex-class isn't a good idea, and an ability that is like a spell it should be "spell-like ability".

I understand. Which is why I suggested the change to a permanent negative level - which is not quite the same thing. It involves no loss of XP or HD, for one. Tell the truth, I'm not overly happy with the level-drain either, but I couldn't come up with an alternative to model the "soul pain" bit; I'd love to hear an actual alternative model.

As for the spell-like abilities, I understand your point. However, it doesn't really adress my point, which is "Are the Guardian Powers unbalancing as extra-ordinary abilities rather than the more usual supernatural or spell-like abilities?"

If they are, and I cannot infer your opinion from what you've said, then they must change to bring the PrC back in balance.